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One thing that some poker sites do that is kind of similar to your weekly bonus idea is something called a rake race, where players are given cash based on their position in some rake leaderboards. Like "More total rake was collected from tables you were at than any other single player's tables this month, here's $x." That kind of thing. Of course, it's more of a reward for playing a lot than a reward for playing well, and the people who win the most are frequently break-even or slightly losing players who play very many tables simultaneously all month and make all their money on those rake race rewards.
For a skill contest, I'd much rather either stick to regular cash games or have something akin to a poker heads-up tournament than what we had today, where the format discouraged good cash game play in favor of hoping variance was on your side for a couple hours and put you in a situation where you never had any chance to influence your actual competition's results. I'm not fond of tournaments where a) The worse you are at the game the more you influence the final rankings and b) The people who end up in the top few spots never have to (and in fact probably don't) compete with each other at all outside of a kind of lame, indirect "who can find and beat up on weaker players faster" contest.
Obviously entering the event was a +EV move, since the tribute was, at worst, only slightly more expensive than the cash games one would be playing otherwise and there was like $520 of dead money up for grabs on top, so I'm definitely not complaining about this particular tournament from a value perspective.
Wow, that's better distribution than I expected with the pool so small.
Edit: Oh, I bet that problem gets solved each time someone leaves or delays more than a small time before joining the waitlist again. As long as the person they played against hops right back in, it should end up shuffling everyone if the server always matches whomever has been waiting the longest with an opponent first. I should have realized that.
Thank you.
I'm glad to see that, in this particular case, one of the better players came in first.
Generally speaking, given a large enough player pool, this tournament format will more frequently be won by bad play getting lucky than by good play, on account of the fact that the most common form of bad play in gambling games is to decrease one's average results in exchange for increased variance and this format allows unlimited rebuys with no guarantee that anyone ever has to face a decent player. No particular bad player will win a tournament very often, but collectively they will win most of them if there are enough people playing.
With so few players I'm also concerned about another problem. I'd be very interested in knowing how many unique opponents each person faced.
Economics 101: The correct price to charge for something is the price the most people are willing to pay. Using myself as a sample size of one, I would not continue to play for very long given the current tribute system. With my style of play I would tend to lose money once the unskilled players dried up, and I don't want to be put in the position of using a less conservative (worse) betting system in order to have a chance at making money.
Even with no tribute at all, if you're only good enough at the game to beat the most unskilled players (or insist on using a strategy that can only work on them) but end up in a situation where you are playing skilled players instead, you are going to lose money. I don't know how you think the game could be structured such that even people who refuse to play better than their opponents make money.
All the tribute does is mean your edge has to be roughly 2% higher over your opponent than it would otherwise need to be for you to make a profit over the long term, and in my experience that is easily accomplished in this game. You keep imagining scenarios where everyone is playing this game so close to perfectly that even the tiniest additional obstacle makes any opponent insurmountable, and that is a laughably inaccurate representation of the current state of the player base.
Edit: Another thing to keep in mind is that if, after a long session, one player has 80 coins left and the other player has 105, the tribute didn't take 20 coins from the first player, the other player did, and he's winning the game by enough to potentially be making a decent profit over the long run.
There's nothing wrong with the current tribute system. It works very much like a good poker rake does.
If it were changed to be up front, every game would have to last until someone busted, which can take an arbitrarily long time, especially if no tributes are coming out of the pots. Someone who simply has more time to play could just fold every round as slowly as possible and hope the other person has to leave first. Every malicious player who was ever upset about having lost a pot would simply make the game miserable for the other player.
You're trying to solve problems that aren't problems and are suggesting solutions that would make the game bad.
Edit: Just saw your edit. While taking the tribute at the end would resolve the problem of forcing the game to last until someone busts, I don't know how it is an improvement over the current system, especially considering the tribute percentage would probably have to be increased in order to maintain the same profit for the house.
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I know that betting is the main point of the game, but I rather feel that it's a cheap and
unsatisfying way to inject complexity into a simultaneous move game.
I'm curious why you think that betting actions are cheap and unsatisfying. In my experience with poker I've found bets to be a truly fascinating type of game move and so far I really like the way their existence in this game influences the other actions as well.
I've heard no-limit is also harder for bots
Yes, much harder. The best limit hold'em bots can do pretty well, even against strong professional players, while most solid amateurs with a good grasp of the fundamentals can beat no limit bots as long as the stacks aren't too small.
You are vastly underestimating the significance and difficulty of betting strategies. Every theory you have had about the game is based on an incredibly naive view that having the bigger score more often than your opponent results in you beating them, or at least that it is a relatively minor jump between those two points.
Everything you said is exactly as applicable to No Limit Hold'em as it is to Cordial Minuet, where we see none of the consequences you express concern for. Well, except for people making money primarily off of weaker players, but that's kind of the entire point of a skill based gambling game and I don't understand what you want to change there.
Actually, most of what you've said is simply some variation of "the optimal strategy is whatever turns out to be the optimal strategy" or "if there's an optimal column picking strategy then the game is broken". One of those things is obviously true and the other is highly suspect and not substantiated by any of your claims.
The tributes, at their current rates, are fairly generous to the players and give plenty of room to profit in the long term with even a relatively minor skill advantage over your opponents.
Either demonstrate an optimal strategy (which requires solving the entire game) or stop constantly panicking about the fact that there theoretically is one, because that is true of every game that exists.
As far as limits go, I think no limit was really the right choice for this game. Maybe an argument could be made for a pot-limit version (where the maximum bet is the current size of the pot), but it would really hurt the last betting round in this game, since the range of scores is so small at that point it can take some extreme bets in certain situations for play to be interesting there. Additionally, it is being advocated here mostly in a "I want to be playing for more money but not playing for as much money" way that doesn't really make sense and suggests to me that people should be adjusting the size of the game they are playing rather than trying to get new rule options.
How does that work? Surely a rake of even 1-2% would totally eat that up? (But I don't know what the average bet size in bb for professional play would be).
Win rate calculations are post rake. 5bb/100 means that you're actually up 5 big blinds per 100 hands, taking everything into consideration.
It's not about being unskilled. If the best player in the world is going against the second best player in the world, the smaller the smallest of the two stacks gets, the less of an advantage the better player has, so it always in the better player's best interest for the stacks to be reset.
Your 'obvious solution' isn't even a solution to the thing you thought was a problem, because resetting the stakes is exactly what you were saying was the problem, and then you suggested it as the solution. It also goes against Jason's goal of keeping any particular player from being preyed upon by a stronger opponent for too long.
Jason and I have both already said quite a bit about this in this thread: http://cordialminuet.com/originensemble … c.php?id=7
The point of the game isn't that you're supposed to risk the entire amount you bought in with. Penalizing people for not staying until they do so would be bad.
Additionally, resetting to full stacks when you were ahead makes it more likely, not less likely that someone can get back what they lost from you, if they are able to play you again. Especially if they are more skilled than you. If the game allowed players to top up their stack and/or to buy in for less than 100 antes, there would be a potential ratholing problem (ratholing is the action you described of leaving a table with more than the maximum buy-in and then coming back to it with less than you took away, and it is not allowed by casinos or online poker sites). Since, however, all the tables are heads-up and the the small stack therefore determines effective stack size in each round played, and since people can't add-on or buy in for less than the maximum, ratholing is not the reason rational players would be leaving tables to reset the stakes. Instead, if good players develop a habit of leaving tables, it will be because the smallest stack got too small for them to get the most out of their skill advantage against the other player, and it doesn't matter which player has the smallest stack for that.
Nevermind, I don't think I want to talk about strategy yet.
It is very rare that your best option in a given row is a bad one.
If you can tell exactly what row someone is going to give you and can always choose whichever space you want in that row, what are you saying is the downside? Because that sounds pretty good.
I think there are things you are neglecting to take into consideration and that you shouldn't be so worried.
There are tradeoffs in different styles of play, and you're advocating a specific tight style and then stressing about exactly the potential downsides of that style of play. It is not the only style, and it is not the one I use, and the numerical value of the first space you and your opponent claim is not the only thing that matters in the first round.
Raising the antes would not be good. The smaller your starting stack at the beginning of the game relative to the amount in the pot at the beginning of the game, the less room there is for skillful play.
Winning isn't about getting all your opponent's coins, it's about making a profit over the long term, and there are other ways to do that than to have hands play out to the point where people are making enormous bets all the time. Keep in mind that even good professional poker players are happy with a win rate of 5bb/100 hands, which is like the equivalent of being up 3-4 coins total after a hundred boards. Unless you're playing against someone who is so significantly less skilled than you that it's hardly even a fair game, you should not expect to be able to maintain very high win rates (although they will probably be higher than the 6-handed poker I'm used to, since the play is heads up and should therefore end up a bit looser).
You should try lowering your expectations about the average size of pots and work on learning additional ways to profit.
I left a game once by clicking into the window to give it focus without realizing I was clicking onto the [Leave] button. There should be some sort of confirmation required to reduce the chance that anyone unintentionally leaves with money in play.
I agree that the game is more beginner friendly than poker! Assuming zero beforehand knowledge, it would be much faster to get someone up to a reasonable level of play in this than it is in poker, which I think is going to be pretty cool.
I'm sorry I throw out a lot of terms and ideas that are completely foreign to most people, usually I'm trying to get across a lot of information in a small paragraph and sometimes I forget that even relatively simple poker terms are nonsense to most people (it would never even have occurred to me, for example, to define 'stack'). If I ever start writing about Cordial Minuet strategy I'll make it a point to be very careful about what I say.
Many of you may be coming from non-gambling backgrounds, and even more have probably only gambled very casually in the past. In the interest of helping people have the best experience possible while trying this cool new game, I want to share the single biggest piece of advice most people who don't have serious experience with these sorts of games never get: Manage your bankroll!
The reason that proper bankroll management is important to everyone is that games like this have variance. No matter how good you are, sometimes the other person will win, and this means that up is not the only direction that your pile of money will go. Even if you're confident that you have a 90% chance of being profitable each time you sit down to play, it is still possible to have a long consecutive run of losses (there is no guarantee that they will be evenly distributed throughout your sessions and can clump up in ways that can be devastating). If you manage your bankroll responsibly, you can significantly reduce the chance that bad runs will ruin your ability to continue playing the game (or cause even worse financial problems). I'm going to be grossly oversimplifying here and making many assumptions so that the basic ideas should work for as many people as possible, but if you want a detailed analysis, see The Mathematics of Poker Chapter 22: Staying in Action: Risk of Ruin, by Bill Chen and Jerrod Ankenman, as well as the following chapters on uncertainty and rational game selection.
So now you might be asking questions like "What is a bankroll?" and "How does one go about managing a bankroll?" and "Do I still have some spring rolls in the freezer?". I'm glad you asked! It's really a pretty easy process, but the discipline required sometimes makes it easy to mess up, especially because the emotional rollercoasters associated with gambling are very good at eroding discipline in an instant. Keep in mind that the real difficulty is not in any of the individual steps, but in forcing yourself to obey them at all times.
1) Decide how much money is your 'Cordial Minuet' money, and set that money aside (or deposit it into the game, or whatever). This is your bankroll, and it grows as you win games and shrinks as you lose games.
2) Never play a game where it's possible to have more than 5% of your bankroll at risk at a time.
3) Do not take all of your profits out of your bankroll, allow it to grow over time when you are successful.
For example, let's say you decide that $20 is all you're willing to risk losing to this game and you deposit it. The highest stakes you should play are $1. If, after your first game, you have lost the $1 you put up on the game, you should now avoid buying into any games for more than 95 cents, and so on. If you correctly shrink the size of the games you are playing relative to the size of your shrinking bankroll, it makes it very difficult for you to actually lose the entire thing in a game like this that allows for arbitrary stakes as low as 1 cent per game. Likewise, if you only move up in stakes when your bankroll has grown proportionally, you'll be much less likely to be playing far outside of your skill level and will have a much lower chance of ruining your ability to continue playing in the future by losing too much money at once.
If you want to be serious about the game, the very first thing you should do is make the decision to be incredibly strict about your bankroll and do your best to never have to add to it from outside sources of income. If you plan to use your winnings to supplement your income, decide on a percentage of your winnings to move to your general funds and use the rest to allow your bankroll to grow, as the strategy of attempting to maintain a constant bankroll and removing all winnings from it leads to a 100% risk of ruin over the long term.
If, on the other hand, you're mostly playing casually, have plenty of outside income, and have more fun losing larger amounts than winning tiny amounts, what you might want to do is consider your bankroll to be a weekly or monthly thing that mostly helps to cap your losses over the short term. At the beginning of the next month or week you can deposit again if you need to and start your bankroll over. The important thing is that you're honest with yourself about how much you're willing to lose over any given period and force yourself to be disciplined enough to not deviate from the plan. Exercising proper bankroll management over each of these time periods will allow you to have more fun on the same amount of money instead of blowing your gambling budget too quickly and having to wait until next month in order to play responsibly.
I hope some of you find this helpful!
I was only referring to actually dropping the sliders into position. I'm pretty sure the bug always occurs if the act of dropping a slider onto a column forces the other slider into the position you picked this one up from.
You misunderstood me. There is a difference between displacing a slider into an uninhabited neighboring column and displacing a slider specifically into the column the other slider occupied before it was picked up.
Edit: And yes, in my experience it happens 100% of the time when the event I described occurs.