CORDIAL MINUET ENSEMBLE

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#1 Re: Main Forum » Admiring from a distance » 2015-07-11 05:55:33

jasonrohrer wrote:

The game itself is pretty dry, in part because there's no randomness.  Of course, there can't be randomness for legal reasons, but that means you'll never have the thrill of secretly being dealt AA in poker.  The "holy crap, this is it!" moment that keeps people coming back to Poker.  Granted, there's probably a strong dose of pure gambling juice in that cocktail, but so be it.  There's gambling in Isaac, Spelunky, FTL, etc., and that's part of their widespread appeal.  My next run in Spelunky could be THE run where I finally get the shotgun, climbing gloves, jetpack, and Wadjet Eye.  Or it could be a run where I get the dark level followed by the spider level.

Being able to exploit things in an interesting way is really important, and CM allows for that. You mentioned that CM feels dry because there is no randomness, but I'd be compelled to argue that point a little. CM doesn't enforce randomness, but players can optionally use external random number generators/dice rollers if they wish to select columns. I think I enjoy CM less when I'm loosing focus, can't keep up with what my opponent is doing, and resort to random guesses because my strategy is weak.

CM actually, to me, seems like a stronger game the less random a players choices are. It's enjoyable figuring someone out, potential random elements in this game disrupt that ability. Betting in the game seems to me the least random part of the game in this regard, and also remains interesting throughout the length of the game, even if I'm loosing focus on board choices. Betting means something, most players aren't going to randomly select their bet amounts each phase, otherwise they'd bleed chips quick. So learning their betting habits perhaps might be more interesting to me at times than the board selection. Of course, they compliment each other. If I notice someone never backs down from a bet then I'll take advantage of that if I'm getting good numbers on the board (through "luck" or not).

jasonrohrer wrote:

Each game is a learning experience for me as a designer.  I wanted to make a game like this regardless of its commercial potential, simply because nothing like it existed.  However, it still makes a good case study about why some things take off and others do not.  How could a gambling game not take off?  Well, here's how.

I'm seriously super, super thankful to you for doing what you do. Even if some of these things haven't panned out as planned, they're absolutely fascinating experiments with game design. A lot of your stuff has helped illustrate (to me at least) areas of game design to explore that might have never even crossed my mind had I not played them.

jasonrohrer wrote:

But its also very easy to misjudge the cause of this or that negative symptom.  I've had a few people tell me that the anonymity is the problem in CM or TCD.  That if I just added chat, the games would have both become the next Rust or Minecraft.  But I think the problems run way deeper than that.  Adding chat (as an example) would muck with the aesthetic purity of the experiences while not really addressing the true obstacles standing in the way of larger, sustained audiences.

I very much agree with this... a whole lot. I don't necessarily think that the anonymous factor killed the potential for a community all by itself. I mean, heck, if that were true then no single player games would have one. Which is actually an interesting thought, because it gets you thinking about how people decide on what's worth forming around.

Dan_Dan84 wrote:

You seemed very enthusiastic about the game, but you hadn't appeared on the forums since then. In fact,  I think we've had quite a few people like you: people who joined the game, fell in love with it, played a lot for a little while... and then drifted away. Thanks for coming back and sharing your thoughts.

No problem! Interestingly enough I've been experiencing some of the same honeymoon feelings I had before while playing the game some recently. I know it might not last, but I do still enjoy the game a great deal when I throw myself back into the darkness.

Dan_Dan84 wrote:

I experienced some of the same symptoms as you during the days post-launch. While it was awesome having so many people playing, and therefore never waiting more than a few seconds for a game to start, the games did seem to blur into each other. Personally, I think I also experienced the Overjustification Effect, as I was playing so many games in order to win a prize outside of the usual reward for winning a game.

This is actually a really, really good point. I think I also burned myself out early on in a similar way. I'm not necessarily sure if it was because of the contest or not but I think playing the game in more moderation would have been beneficial to me enjoying the game more over time. The games in CM can sometimes be very, very lengthy individually too... I imagine it's been discussed at length on the forums before though.

#2 Main Forum » Admiring from a distance » 2015-07-09 12:07:29

CriticalMammal
Replies: 4

In this post I'll try to outline why this game hasn't been able to keep me around as an active player. Looking through the forums it seems like the game hasn't attracted the audience size it was hoping for, so I hope this might be beneficial in some way if it's not already too late.

I started Cordial Minuet around May 6th 2015, and played it on and off for maybe a week or two before losing steam with the game. I've always had great admiration for how the game was designed ever since I heard about it (back when the visuals were still placeholder). It's devilishly clever and somehow manages to remain compact and simple-ish to pickup. The real money aspect was intriguing, and even though I'm not into betting I decided to play anyway because I found out you didn't actually NEED a lot of money to play. Pay the $2 + fees (I think?) and you can essentially play the game as long as you want if you keep the stakes low. So the barrier to entry is low enough for both learning the game and affording to play (enough for a college student on a budget haha).

I played and I remember thoroughly enjoying my time with the game, especially the first couple of days. It was thrilling and I won a fair amount of the games I participated in (almost exclusively games below $0.10). As I continued to play though, I think the stress of trying to win games got to me, and it grew less and less appealing popping open the game to be greeted with the simple yet ominous interface of the game. When I played games they seemed to drag on longer than I wanted to actually play, the board numbers started to blur together after a while and look the same. Learning my mysterious opponent grew tiring, I tried to keep track of their choices over multiple sessions but it was somewhat overwhelming deciphering their patterns. Even with the potential outcome bars on screen I grew tired of juggling info like "they've gone for rows that seem to have a high avg in the past but they've picked high risk rows some too...".

I think my personal preferences play a large role in why I can't seem to enjoy this game over time. I've found that I don't enjoy prolonged exposure to competitive multiplayer games as much as other more cooperative focused experiences. I can appreciate the tension and adrenaline during gameplay, but it wears on me over time. So a large part of my reasons for not sticking with the game might just be due to my personal preferences. I'm normally not attracted as much to these kind of things, but it's just so darn unique I couldn't help myself wink

I do wonder though, if the game's stunted growth is maybe in part because of its design. I understand the game is all about the unknown and playing with hidden information... but it seems like some of that might fundamentally undermine elements to building a community. I could very well be playing against bots and not know. I remember Jason saying somewhere he liked the idea of dehumanizing the opponent... but the side effect of that means that it's very difficult to build relationships through the game and appreciate that you ARE playing against a human and taking/giving them real money. The external resources exist, like the Twitter bot and chat room, but the barrier there is still pretty hard to overcome. I remember I played the Castle Doctrine in a similar fashion. I was completely enamored by it over the first week or two and just never came back to it afterwards. It also shared some similar design as Cordial Minuet in terms of playing with the idea of the unknown. I still love The Castle Doctrine conceptually as much as I like Cordial Minuet, but have no plans on revisiting the game.

Anyway, I came back to the Cordial Minuet today on a whim and did enjoy the penny match I played. It had a couple of games, and when I started to grow tired (and had taken the lead) I left with a $0.01 gain. I didn't know about the leave penalty increasing over time, so I suffered a 13 chip leave penalty. I still say that there should be a "continue playing" decision there, a lot of times I would be relieved after a winning round and don't think to quit until I see the next board appear haha.

I'm not sure if I plan on playing the game much anymore, but I might pop in here and there. If anyone has any additional questions they want to ask me feel free to make a post! I'd love to try and help this game (and Jason's future games) succeed, even though I myself seem to have lost most of my interest for the time being.

#3 Re: Main Forum » Leaving: avoiding the next ante » 2015-05-09 21:28:31

Yeah, this aspect was a little fuzzy to me at first. Maybe the game should ask if you want to continue playing by putting X amount of chips on the line? Sometimes I get really caught up trying to figure out what my opponent did last round and then we're playing another round before I can think to exit.

#4 Re: Main Forum » First Day Feedback » 2015-05-07 16:39:36

.. wrote:

Regarding other forms of communication, how about something inspired by how there are different ways to  perform physical actions like betting: do you throw in your chips aggressively, or mechanically, or as if reluctantly? (I don't know how to translate that into the game... click and drag to push/throw your chips would be both ridiculous and amusing. Actually, it might be possible to show some information about the opponent's mouse movements?) Right now we have the proxy of the length of time you take to bet or pick a column, but you can't even see how long the other person took to bet if you take longer, which is a pity. I think "COMMIT" starts flashing immediately after they pick columns, but I'm not sure.

I was tossing it over more in my head after I posted... and I do think that if something like this were added, it would need to be tied to the game's existing mechanics somehow. Otherwise it runs a very heavy risk of being really confusing for a new player. Like with the tarot card idea mentioned earlier, it'd be confusing to have visual elements cluttering the screen that don't impact the game directly. You'd be inclined to try and figure out their function and if your opponent started playing them you'd be all "Oh no, am I missing something? What do those cards do? Oh no Oh no Oh no".

I thought about mouse movements somehow being included also... though it may lead to a lot of unintentional information being shown about yourself going that route. It also comes with a trade-off where you might not be able to opt out of participating in that form of communication. Wouldn't want to undermine any current control over information players have, though there is something appealing about how varied your interactions could be.

Playing with sound more came to mind. But while it would be interesting building up some strange ritualistic audio with your opponent to a frenzy... it's got a number of issues. The current sound cues are pretty important, the chime entering a game and the ding when you're running out of time during a turn help notify. Having any constant background noise probably wouldn't work, because it's likely to break concentration and people would probably be inclined to turn off the volume (meaning they miss the game notification sounds). Any additional sound cues coming from either player would most likely need to be similar in length to the current notification sounds. I would imagine this being like... optionally being able to select a preset sound clip to play during the betting phase, so as to not distract during the tile selection process.

The only other thing that came to mind was playing with color somehow. Colors can be kind of ambiguous in meaning and have to be interpreted to some degree. Blue might mean calm/zen to me but might mean depression/regret to you. I kind of like this fuzzy aspect, but again, messing with these aspects of the game could lead to confusion (especially for new players) if it's not directly related to the game mechanics. The thought briefly crossed my mind of players being able to change their own color on the board each turn haha, it'd be a confusing mess. Other variations of the idea kind of float around being able to change a blotch of color in your chip amount corner or something. Probably with the similar rough-ish painted look the board uses for rows/columns.

.. wrote:

Delaying the "broadcast" until the whole game (not just one round) is over is another option.

Agreed, there's just not a good way I can think of to know people aren't cheating without making sure that people can't see a game until after it's over. Dan_Dan84 also mentioned higher level players might not want to be watched, otherwise their strategies will be on display. It's a tough scenario, but it does add an interesting angle to the high-end game anonymity (since people are less likely to watch lower stake games). Who saw the game? How long will my game be on display? Should I start adopting new strategies?

Oh, just read Jason's more recent post though. Hmm... I suppose it's a good point about losing your opportunity to find out their picks if you fold. And it seems like certain players may end up streaming and whatnot anyway so there's likely to be some external stuff where players can feed off of the souls willing to reveal themselves haha. Excited to see how that aspect plays out.

#5 Main Forum » First Day Feedback » 2015-05-07 04:12:33

CriticalMammal
Replies: 16

It was my first day playing, and I figured it could be nice to write up some initial thoughts about the game from a new player's perspective. I'll outline some of the basic strategies I've been able to kind of pick up on, and include how certain aspects of the game made me feel and react initially.


Preparing To Play
----------------------
I was a fan of previous games by Rohrer, so when I heard of this game (back before the graphics were changed) I was intrigued. I kind of picked up on the basic rules and how the game worked, but haven't actually had any hands on time until the recent public opening. I watched the "how to play" video, watched a different and lengthier video that demonstrated it a bit more, and read the brief guide here: https://www.reddit.com/r/cordialminuet/ … egy_guide/

This means I didn't go into the game completely blind. I knew what I was getting into (to some extent) and did a little preparation before starting. I'm generally a little hesitant with putting money on the line, and I'm not a fan of leaving things to chance. That's partially why this game was appealing though, due to its reliance more on strategy and learning your opponent's tendencies rather than luck of the draw.


[New Game] -> [Create]
--------------------------
I've only played games at $0.01 so far. But man oh man, even though there's very little on the line it still adds something special to each game. I really like this aspect, that as long as I play smart, I shouldn't have to invest more than my initial $2 deposit if I just want to play for fun. For a game all about risk, it has a surprising amount of respect for what I invest in the game. There's no real pressure to bite off more than I can chew, and it lets me play at my own pace and risk. I also don't feel like I'll lose because I was dealt a "bad board", I'll loose because I couldn't predict my opponent's moves. Loosing and winning feels earned for the most part (especially over time), and that feeling is amplified more by the real money aspect.

I really admire how anonymous everything is in-game, but at the same time... I sometimes yearn to be able to communicate with more than my bets and board moves mid-match. I think I'm fine with not being able to track players and whatnot after the games are over, but in-game I sometimes feel... restricted. I'll predict my opponent's next move flawlessly, or have them play a smart bet against me... and will sometimes smile and mutter to myself "Oh you clever person you". But it feels hollow, they'll never know my reaction to that last great move and I'll never know theirs. I feel like there needs to be some very simple system of communication mid-match, like a way to express yourself briefly after a turn has ended. I've never played it, but Hearthstone comes to mind for having little ways to interact like this in a similar format. I'm also a fan of the Demon's/Dark Souls series and how they do anonymous interactions with gestures, it adds quite a lot to each encounter but still retains an air of mystery.

I do wonder if the deepness of the anonymous interactions may end up hurting the community a bit. It's no doubt somewhat unique, but it also feels like it's hard to retain a sense of the community surrounding the game because of it. Another thing that occurred to me while opening up the game once more, was that I noticed a game available for $6,666.99. I'll probably never participate in a game of that caliber, but I'd be incredibly interested in being able to observe it from the shadows through some kind of in-game spectator mode.


Strategies I've Witnessed and Used So Far
--------------------------------------------------
I probably have about a ~70% success rate at the moment. To me "success" means I leave with more than I arrived with. I'm not some amazing player, but I've picked up on a couple of things that might be useful.

Even just after my first day I already was able to pick up on one memorable strategy I saw an opponent using frequently (also mentioned in the guide I linked above). It's the "give them the row with the lowest high number" strategy. It's fairly easy to counter once you pick up on it, especially if they rely on it heavily. The goal for them is to try and knock your potential score window down so that by the end, there's less chance of you being able to bluff your way to a win. The person I played was super predictable using this and I could almost always give myself fairly good numbers by looking for that row.

I leave when I'm ahead and I feel uncomfortable predicting their moves. If I've got > 140 or so chips and facing an unpredictable player I normally will leave while I've got the advantage. Even though I only play for pennies haha, I play cautious like this as a way to practice for games where higher stakes may be involved and might be hard-ish to walk away from.

When I'm running out of time for a move my general "go to" quick strategy (if the first turn has already passed), is to observe the numbers in their previously chosen rows. I generally want to give them the columns that line up with the largest numbers in their previously chosen rows. This is because if they've already cancelled out a large number like a 32 for themselves by selecting that row for me... I want to exploit that. It means that the rest of the numbers are more likely to give them lower amounts, though you still have to be careful of other large numbers in the same column. It's a good little way for me to make a quick decision if needed, and it's easy to layer this tactic with other strategies. Of course, when selecting a column for yourself the process is the complete opposite. Look for the smallest numbers they've already cancelled out, and pick those columns since you're more likely to get a higher point distribution.

I'm a bad liar, but that's okay. Even though I can't bluff for my life, I can still out play my opponents and get myself in positions where I'm confident I have the advantage. I fold when I make mistakes and can't predict my opponent right, rather than continuing on blindly. This has the added benefit of giving me more time to learn them before I've lost much. This is mostly why I like this game right now. I feel like I can actually sit down and learn someone's move habits rather than relying more on luck and understanding how they bet. Understanding their betting is a part of it too, but I enjoy being able to intentionally out play opponents mostly through learning the board moves.

#6 Re: Main Forum » Active Users » 2015-05-07 01:28:23

Happy to be a part of the recent spike! Fantastic game, I'm really enjoying myself.

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