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#1 Re: Main Forum » Any thought given to an Android port? » 2015-01-08 17:23:12

Pox
computermouth wrote:

Well, jason's basically written the code and makefiles to choose platform specific libraries at compile time. OpenGL does the draws and dumps them into SDL 1.2. With the included macro to use GL-ES(which is supported by android), I'd just have to convert the SDL 1.2 code to SDL2, then take care of little quirky things.

Ah, I assumed the GL ES code was incomplete since even with the GLES flag enabled it was making some calls that the linker was flagging as legacy GL; but it looks like those functions were valid GLES1.1, but were removed in version 2.0 of GLES. Thus you can probably get it compiling essentially unmodified using the android NDK, while the emscripten version would require updating the code that uses glMatrixMode/glLoadIdentity, glVertexPointer and glTexEnvf, since it seems that enscripten does not support GLES1.1 either.

#2 Re: Main Forum » Any thought given to an Android port? » 2015-01-08 09:48:11

Pox

Well it seems silly to rewrite the game in SDL2 just to then use an SDL2 compatibility layer. I guess if you can't get 1.2 running on android natively then it's a reasonable step.

I'd like to try writing a javascript client, but there's no way I'll have time to polish it (or likely to even get it working functionally) any time soon. I might have a fiddle with emscripten myself to see how many tweaks are necessary.

Edit: Porting might be more difficult than I thought - SDL is used to set up the window, but the graphics is all drawn with legacy OpenGL code.

After modifying the Makefile for emscripten and commenting out SDL_GL_SWAP_CONTROL, it compiles and successfully initializes the 666x666 webGL window along with the sound system. However, it doesn't like the legacy OpenGL methods at all - in emscripten's LEGACY_GL_EMULATION mode it can get as far as loading the textures only when the webGL inspector is enabled (yay heisenbugs), but fails upon trying to blit them. I'm guessing much of the graphics code will need to be rewritten if this is going to run on Android, whether it's via WebGL or OpenGL ES. @cullman: did the SDL1.2 -> 2.0 port for TCD also involve updating the OpenGL code?

#3 Re: Main Forum » Any thought given to an Android port? » 2015-01-08 04:52:22

Pox

HTML+Javascript would suit this game perfectly and run on pretty much anything with an updated compliant browser, which is a pretty huge audience these days. Obviously there's a considerable initial effort involved in such a port (and an on-going one if you want to maintain the native version). Personally, it's something I'd love to see.

You could perhaps consider a C++-to-javascript compiler like emscripten or cheerp - this could potentially reduce the required effort to writing browser-based implementations of your input/graphics/network interfaces.  I haven't tried anything like this myself and I'm not sure how many changes might be required to the game code itself - given how simple the client-side logic is, this might end up being just as hard as a full rewrite. (Edit: apparently emscripten includes an SDL1.2 implementation - not sure how complete this is.)

#4 Re: Main Forum » The Tragedy of Judge Doorman » 2015-01-02 12:23:35

Pox

if only someone would play at stakes greater than 5 cents and less than $100 tongue

#5 Re: Main Forum » Denied by server? » 2015-01-01 03:57:22

Pox

I had this once a few days ago. If I remember correctly it was after an all-in win, and I received the payout.

#7 Re: Main Forum » How Elo ratings work » 2014-12-29 06:26:33

Pox

Doesn't this system easily fall victim to one of the issues we discussed in the other thread? If you walk away from a table with 99 chips then this is interpreted as (almost) tying with the opponent, and thus if you do this enough against good players your Elo will rise without ever actually playing well.

#8 Re: Main Forum » Elo ratings? » 2014-12-28 07:01:45

Pox
jasonrohrer wrote:

Your solution is good, except it doesn't punish leaving at 99/101 enough.

Very true - if you're able to quickly identify a playstyle you're weak against then this lets you avoid that weakness being reflected in your rating. However, I would argue that the very ability to make such a quick identification is a valuable skill in a gambling scenario; and indeed leaving these games quickly is a good strategy if you're trying to maximize your bankroll. In order for this kind of strategy to help you in terms of your Elo, of course, you do need to be playing some high-ranked players: if you only play fish then increasing your rating much past fish level should become impossible.

So the question is: if you have the ability to beat some high-ranked players and not others, and you also have the ability to identify those you can't beat before losing much too them, should this be punished? The answer depends upon what you want the rating to measure - if it's designed to highlight good tournament players then it should be punished, but if it's designed to highlight online money-making skills then it should not.

jasonrohrer wrote:

I really want EVERY game to count, otherwise people who care about Elo are motivated to bail "before the game really counts."  Likewise, all games should count the same amount.
You know, imagine if Chess Elo only counted "all games lasting at least 5 minutes" or weighted games based on how long they were.  A bunch of players would start getting stomach aches at the 4:30 mark.... or for the one that weights by game length, be motivated to throw the game before it went on too long to save their Elo.

"One game" is a much less meaningful unit here than in chess. If two players fight it out for a bunch of rounds and end up at 95-95, they could leave the game and start a new one with very little effect, and this first game would be treated as a tie by the ratings system. It just feels natural to me that the rating system should be "additive" - if they instead play until one chips out from the 95-95, the long, close fight should be taken in to effect. Granted this is very different to how ratings systems work in other games - a Fool's Mate and a drawn-out endgame are weighted the same in chess. The reason I would treat this differently is that in chess all that matters is whether you win or you lose; while in a gambling game with the option of leaving early, there are various degrees of success and failure.

Additionally, weighting by the number of times the chips change hands is very different than weighting by the length of time (or number of rounds, etc.) that passes - here I feel like we're really just getting back to the question of punishing early leavers.

I guess overall I just think it's best to make "good play" be universal, whether you're trying to maximize your rating or bankroll. If (as you said) you don't think this matters, then most of my points are irrelevant; but you end up with conflicting motivations for your players, and perhaps discourage people who care about their rating from playing high-stakes games.

Here's a question for you: have you considered a separate "ranked" mode where you compete for rating only, instead of for cash? This would avoid all the issues you're having - as you say, if you leave before your opponent chips out, you lose. If you put this rule in place without splitting the gamemodes then I feel like you are to some extent restricting people to care about either rating or making money, but not both.

jasonrohrer wrote:

(Also, Glicko seems too complicated---I'd really just want one number for each player.)

You don't need to expose Glicko's RD in the leaderboard - it's just a nice number to keep track of internally, and solves the issue of skilled new players/accounts demolishing the ratings of the players they are matched up against while climbing the ladder. The arithmetic is a little more complicated, but I'd say it's worth implementing.

#9 Re: Main Forum » Elo ratings? » 2014-12-28 02:24:32

Pox

I don't think a system using binary win/loss per table is appropriate unless the game itself places a lot of emphasis on playing a table out. As it is now you can walk away at any point (which I like), so I think the outcome of a game should be measured with more granularity. I'd also recommend using a Glicko-like system, which deals with uncertainty better.

Perhaps take the score of a player to be the fraction of total chips won that was won by them, and when recalculating ratings weight the impact of a given table by the total number of chips wagered. This eliminates the issue of a weaker player leaving with 99/101 or 101/99: in either case there will be basically no impact on ratings anyway. It also means that long, back-and-forth games (where the total chips wagered can often exceed 200) will be weighted more heavily, but this makes sense to me - after all, if you swing back and forth and get back to even scores, restarting the table has very little effect.

It also seems somewhat natural to weight everything by the stakes, but this may make it very difficult for penny players to move their rating - perhaps have separate ladder rankings for various stakes brackets? Not sure on this.

#10 Re: Main Forum » [UPDATED] Boxing Day TOURNAMENT » 2014-12-27 11:46:48

Pox

I like the idea of a fixed buy-in with increasing ante and no re-buy: as far as I know that works well for online poker and I see no reason why it would be different here.

#11 Re: Main Forum » Leaderboards » 2014-12-27 11:43:30

Pox

You could probably calculate some normalized average profit based on how much one actually wagers rather than one's total deposits, but this would probably also favour certain stakes over others.

I think you should just make a variety of figures available, but not label any metric in particular as the "skill" leaderboard if that makes sense. I'd definitely like to see total coins and money wagered and won.

#12 Re: Main Forum » Leaderboards » 2014-12-27 04:17:26

Pox

After initial $5 deposit:  vbaseline = 5, bankroll = 5, ratio = 1
After making $10 profit: vbaseline = 5, bankroll = 15, ratio = 3
After winning a $15 prize: vbaseline = 5 + 15/3 = 10, bankroll = 30, ratio = bankroll/vbaseline = 3
After another $10 deposit: vbaseline = 10 + 10 = 20, bankroll = 40, ratio = 2

So it's basically making the assumption "based on your past ratio of 3:1, you could have increased your bankroll by $15 by playing with an extra $5 from the start". This isn't quite true (we expect higher stakes games to have more difficult opponents) but it seems like a reasonable heuristic to me.

#13 Re: Main Forum » Leaderboards » 2014-12-27 02:53:15

Pox

Neither seems totally satisfactory. My advice would be to keep track of a "virtual baseline" (and use it in the ratio calculation) which is increased 1:1 with a normal deposit, but in the case of a prize is increased only by prize/ratio. This would make tournament payouts leave the profit ratios invariant, which seems fairest to me.

#14 Re: Main Forum » [UPDATED] Boxing Day TOURNAMENT » 2014-12-26 20:13:20

Pox
jere wrote:

Thanks! Uh. I left a few slow tables because they weren't going anywhere. The key to winning this was convincing LOTS of people to all-in against their better judgement. And since it's time limited, there is a lot of pressure to all-in.

In fact, I feel victim to this on my first game in the tournament and I was sure I was doomed at that point...

Heheh, I did something rather similar early on and was left with a negative balance. I went a little crazy on the next table (the old "get back in it now or just go to sleep" strat) and came back immediately, but I think I played too conservatively throughout the rest of the tournament.

#15 Re: Main Forum » [UPDATED] Boxing Day TOURNAMENT » 2014-12-26 20:04:20

Pox

Maybe you should have mentioned the prize money in the last email round or something. People who aren't playing actively aren't likely to be checking the forums either, no?

By the way: Hello and thanks for that last email round - it found its way to me yesterday and I had a lot of fun learning to play during the tournament just now. Barely missed out on top 3 but I'm not complaining. tongue

ggwp to creature expression - I wonder whether the high game count is due to leaving tables strategically or just straight-up murdering the competition?

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