New rising ante

jasonrohrer · 2015-01-14 23:38:34

I'm experimenting with something new.

Instead of antes that are fixed at 3 coins or any other number, antes now start small and rise in each new round.

These settings (starting point and rise rate) can bet tweaked on the server, but they currently are:

--Ante starts at 1 coin

--Ante increased by 1 coin each round

I just played a few games with the new setting, and it adds a very dramatic feeling as the pressure builds for both players.

Furthermore, it adds texture to the game as the strategy balance changes on a curve. In the beginning, betting skill matters the most, and picking skill is less important. But several rounds in, the picking skill becomes more and more important.

I believe this increases the skill depth of the game, because the necessary skill changes across a game. Expert players will learn to manage early vs. late game, for example. Staying at a table longer is very different from hopping tables. And so on.

I've talked to several poker players about the ante, and they ALL say the ante is too big already (at 3, or even at 1), and that this "reduces skill" in the game.

But poker players have a strong interest in their POKER skills, and having those skills translate to this game. The best players in this game so far include quite a few poker players (including the current Elo leader).

When the ante increases, their poker skills (betting skills) become less important.

But, I've come to realize that this isn't the only skill in this game. That's kindof the point.

On one far end, you could have a 100 coin ante and play one round. In that case, the skill of picking would be the only skill on display, winner take all.

On the other far end, you could have a 0 coin ante, and your skill in the first pick wouldn't matter at all. You could just keep folding for free until you finally got a good first-round number by accident, and then employ your betting skill. Rolling dice to pick in the first round would then be totally viable---after enough rounds, you'd have a guarantee of eventually getting a high number on turn 1.

By settling on a fixed ante, we're essentially saying, "this is the right balance between these two skills." By "right" I guess we mean "most interesting." But it seems like having the balance between these skills change over time is actually even more interesting than a fixed skill balance.

Finally, it makes sense for the picking skill to start diminished (because you know nothing about this opponent) and grow over time. A skilled player SHOULD be able to read their opponents picks better over time, and that skill should be rewarded. I feel like I've been in lots of situations where, after several rounds, I could read my opponent's picks like a book, FINALLY, but have them just fold away against my superior picking skill.

jere · 2015-01-15 03:59:31

Neat. Dramatic is definitely true. I wonder if this will encourage leavers though. Either way the games are going to end sooner rather than later.

Finally, it makes sense for the picking skill to start diminished (because you know nothing about this opponent) and grow over time.

Yea!! You could even set the initial ante to 0, since you should have absolutely no knowledge about the opponent when you make your first pick. Perhaps too boring.

The best players in this game so far include quite a few poker players (including the current Elo leader).

Hmmmm. I suppose you know this mystery player, since I don't think they have identified themselves here.

jasonrohrer · 2015-01-15 04:07:21

I can confirm that the mystery player is NOT me.

jere · 2015-01-15 04:22:52

Haha. I figured not. The only poker player you've mentioned having contact with is FRANK LANTZ. There's my wild conjecture. It could be anyone really.

Pilam69 · 2015-01-15 04:39:57

Wow, I advocated for this idea and I'm amazed how shocking the ante is to the system........................I'm not sure if it's good or bad but I like the idea!

computermouth · 2015-01-15 08:16:06

Personally, this even fits my play style. I use the first couple rounds to play conservative, bet low, and read the opponent while letting the betting do most of the talking. Then later hone in the applicable picks and try to use what I've learned. I'm excited to try it out!

claspa · 2015-01-15 11:39:43

The rising of the ante is definitely adding more pressure.
I haven't made up my mind whether I like it or not, however I think that the ante is rising too steep.

What about "1-1-2-2-3-3" (2plays +1) or "1-1-1-3-3-3-5-5-5" (3plays +2)?

Last edited by claspa (2015-01-15 11:41:59)

.. · 2015-01-15 12:35:33

On one far end, you could have a 100 coin ante and play one round. In that case, the skill of picking would be the only skill on display, winner take all.

Yes, but this isn't the entire truth. Sure, there's no betting skill involved, but in a single round you can't know anything about your opponent, so most of the column picking skill is also absent. Fewer rounds in a game reduces the amount of opponent reading (even more importantly, double guessing) you can do (which is part of both picking and betting skill), so I'm concerned about that diminishing too much. Don't know yet whether it has.

Last edited by .. (2015-01-15 13:16:19)

jasonrohrer · 2015-01-15 15:09:27

claspa, yes, this can be adjusted with a simple server setting change. I could make it rise every two rounds or every three rounds, though I imagine this would be more confusing to keep track of for new players.

Every 2 rounds would be good if I ever implemented the "flipped board" thing (so both players get to play each board from both perspectives to mitigate slight advantages that the random boards might confer on one player). That way, both players get to play the same board from both rotation perspectives with the same ante.

Pilam69 · 2015-01-15 21:02:05

I have noticed my games seem to last longer and there is more betting

AnoHito · 2015-01-15 22:26:44

I have to say, I think this new system is a stroke of brilliance. Originally, I thought that players would just leave early to avoid playing for stakes they weren't comfortable with, but so far this doesn't seem to be the case. I think this might be because in practice, it doesn't make sense for either player to leave. If a player is behind, the raising ante will give them an opportunity to recover. And if a player is ahead, the raising ante will give them a chance to pressure the other player into losing even more. Like I said earlier, in the end what both players really want is a decisive result, and this new system maximizes the chance they will get one.

jasonrohrer · 2015-01-15 23:38:01

Been playing some Hearthstone recently, and thinking about MTG.

Part of the reason those two games have mana curves (MTG implicitly, Hearthstone explicitly and linearly) is to ensure a decisive result. We swing bigger and bigger until one person is knocked out (as opposed to just chipping away).

That makes the games more dramatic and decisive.

Omnibot · 2015-01-16 00:30:16

If only I could find a way to play every CM game in the style of Handlock or Control Warrior

I have only got around to playing one game of rising ante but I do like it a lot, fits my style of play for sure.

Last edited by Omnibot (2015-01-16 00:31:12)

cullman · 2015-01-16 04:21:38

I also like the rising ante, but I am concerned more conservative players will just leave the game early. What if on quitting you automatically forfeit 2x the next round's ante. One thing I love about no limit sit and gos is people play their whole stack. If this was implemented it would always be in someone's best interest to look at the next round unless they legit have to go for some reason.

Mevans · 2015-01-16 09:03:56

I really like the new rising ante. The game I played last was incredibly tense as a result. The punishment is severe for folding later in the game when, if you're good, you should be able to read your opponent by this point. And rightly so.

Cullman, I'm not entirely sure I agree. I don't like being punished for leaving at all. I like the choice of leaving a table when I've had my fill. Although what you say is true, it would absolutely convince me to not leave if I have to pay double the ante, but more so in the late game than the early game ESPECIALLY if I was losing. Imagine having 40 chips left and being forced to pay 20 (double the ante of 10) to leave. I'd feel slightly cheated.

claspa · 2015-01-16 16:58:00

Ok, so I made up my mind. The rising of the ante is making the play more interesting.

However I really think that it is rising too steep. I have less time to gather data of my opponents play and I have less time for some unusual plays to disrupt my method and so to put the opponent off my scent.

I understand what Jason is saying about an ante rise like "1-1-2-2-3-3" (2plays +1) or "1-1-1-3-3-3-5-5-5" could be unusual for new players, maybe we can find a solution for this.
What about this? When putting Ante on the table it could say "Ante: 2 (Next Round: 3)".

jasonrohrer · 2015-01-16 18:50:55

Hmm... it almost seems like the ante level X could last for X rounds before rising again, like this:
1
2
2
3
3
3
4
4
4
4
5
5
5
5
5

Then again, the rise from 4 to 5 really isn't as big of a deal as the rise from 1 to 2.

Here's another interesting thing:

The average number of rounds per game has actually gone UP slightly since the rising ante was instituted. That average is now 5.5, by the way. So, it's still not very many in terms of learning your opponent, but it's better than it used to be, on average.

The question might be: if two somewhat conservative players are committed to playing to the end, how many rounds will they play? With the rising antes, I think it's clear that this number is smaller than it used to be.

I'd like to get feedback from others on this point. Do you think it's rising too fast now?

Pilam69 · 2015-01-16 22:49:27

I agree with Cullman, I really dislike people who leave before the game is decided. I would really like a penalty for players that leave early. Once you commit to a game you should be committed for that amt. If you leave you lose it all, not just a part of it.

AnoHito · 2015-01-16 23:00:22

I think that if there is a leaving penalty, it should be a flat fee of something like 5 chips. If the stakes are high and you are significantly short stacked, leaving makes the most sense and you shouldn't be penalized too much for it (compared to what you'd lose to the ante). But if the ante is still low players should be motivated to stick around to prevent cherry picking opponents, or leaving when you even have a slight disadvantage.

jasonrohrer wrote:

I'd like to get feedback from others on this point. Do you think it's rising too fast now?

Well, I don't, but then again, high pressure really suits my style. People are so much easier to manipulate when they're under pressure. But I think that is really the key to making the game interesting. Both players need to feel like they are under constant pressure. The winner should be determined by who handles the pressure the best and makes good decisions in spite of it. At least that's how I feel about it. The current system does a very good job of that, and in my opinion, reducing the rate of the ante increase would only move use back toward the old, boring, conservative style of play.

Last edited by AnoHito (2015-01-16 23:08:07)

computermouth · 2015-01-17 00:10:53

Personally, I think the system is currently great. It makes sense: as a player, in the theme, and in the meta.

sjon03 · 2015-01-18 11:46:49

I finally convinced one of my friends to play CM. In his first session of games he reached an ante of 31! Jason, is this the highest ante to date?

The highest I've played to myself is 17.

jasonrohrer · 2015-01-18 20:33:35

I'm not currently tracking that stat, so I don't know!

Regarding a penalty for leaving, I think knowing when to leave is a VERY important skill in this game. Human nature makes you NOT want to leave even when you are clearly outclassed. Well, at least MY human nature makes me feel that way in Poker, almost always to my detriment.

Professor Chin · 2015-01-19 08:54:27

I think that if you give just one coin to your opponent if you leave it might sound fair: it's as big as a tribute, or as the first ante you put when you start playing.
I think it affects more psychologically that "factually" the opportunity to leave.

I myself would feel lees guilty when I abandon the fight.

Also there's a price to pay if you leave a Ritual before it's concluded

claspa · 2015-01-26 14:33:11

I am starting to like the rising ante.
Regarding the guys who just play 2-3 games very aggressively and leave after taking just the ante or a little bit more than 100 coins I think the rising ante is working in their favor. What do you think about the first 2-3 games with an ante of just 1?

computermouth · 2015-01-27 02:55:38

I think that would just bring back the ultra conservative for 2-3 rounds, then resuming the very aggressive leavers.

CORDIAL MINUET ENSEMBLE

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