Score preview before 3rd turn

jere · 2015-01-16 03:16:25

Really simple, but important issue here. On the 3rd turn, you get to preview your final score depending of course on which row you will get.

The problem is you're not allowed to do that after the 2nd turn selections have been made. Betting immediately begins and highlighting your remaining choices appears to do nothing. There is no difference between the available board information at those two times.

This might seem minor, but actually the final score preview is often the most critical piece of information in the whole round. Sometimes you even see that you have a guaranteed win because any of your potential picks in a given column award you the highest score. But you currently can't access that information before 2nd turn betting.

jasonrohrer · 2015-01-16 07:16:37

Just looked at this.

In terms of implementation, the mousing over cells works only on cells that are assigned to red or green, so it knows what you're trying to test.

You're asking to mouse over uncolored cells (or click on uncolored cells) before betting after the second pick. But what color should the game assume you're trying to test for those cells?

During pick three, you can only mouse over an uncolored cell after you have placed a slider---thus, the game knows what your mouse over represents.

I suppose that, if a cell is uncolored and unassigned by you yet, mousing over it could assume that you want to know what happens if it becomes green (and offer no way to test what happens if becomes red).

jere · 2015-01-16 13:53:25

Oh darn. I've been chewing on this for a while and never put 2 and 2 together.

I suppose that, if a cell is uncolored and unassigned by you yet, mousing over it could assume that you want to know what happens if it becomes green (and offer no way to test what happens if becomes red).

In lieu of letting you fiddle with sliders during betting, which would confuse the UI, this is the best approach.

IMHO, previewing the final red selections doesn't offer you much information. Each possibility gives 6 more possibilities for your opponent and plenty for yourself. On the other hand, previewing the number you'll get tells you exactly what your final score is.

jasonrohrer · 2015-01-16 18:57:26

So you're really just looking for a one-sum math aid at that point? My current score is 45. Mouse over the 30-cell to help me see 45+30.

I thought you'd also be looking at how the red graph jumped around if you got a given number on turn 3, which is why I thought it would be confusing to mouse over uncolored cells while betting. Yeah, if you clicked on a cell, the little green "arrows" could pop up as usual, but before that, it seems like it could be a little confusing with the graph jumping around.

Obviously, I'd do this during turn 1 betting as well, for consistency, which seems like it would cause even more confusion.

I'm still leaning toward NOT adding this behavior, because mousing over colored/assigned columns feels well-defined, and it seems sensible to have that be the rule. If the column is not colored/assigned yet, you can't mouse over it to sneak-peek the graph.

jere · 2015-01-16 19:48:31

So you're really just looking for a one-sum math aid at that point? My current score is 45. Mouse over the 30-cell to help me see 45+30.

What can I say? I'm a knuckle dragger.

But no seriously, it's A LOT more than that. Previewing a cell not only does a flat add (45+30) but also cancels out a possible score for the opponent. Not only that, but you'd have to do all this math 8 times.

Because I clearly haven't made my case well, let me elaborate. The scoreboard you see during Turn 2 betting can be quite inaccurate in some cases because a rational player wouldn't choose some of those options. Here's an extreme example of the last 8 numbers on the game board.

Let's say your current score is 45. The scoreboard is saying your final score might be 54, 55, 56, 57 ...or... 70, 71, 72, 73.

BS. This is a no brainer. You'll surely select the right column. Your scores shown during Turn 2 are misleading AND the opponent scores are wildly inflated (because you would never give them the 25-28).

This is one of the cases where not having the math done for you leads to a pretty significant advantage for people with 3rd party help and bots.

jasonrohrer · 2015-01-16 22:26:22

Okay, it's on my to-do list.

Essentially, how it will work is that if you mouse over a red or assigned-to-red column, it will assume you want to see the graph with that red square won by your opponent. If you mouse over a green or assigned-to-green OR unassigned (uncolored) column, it will assume you want to see the graph with that square won by you. And clicking on an unassigned square will behave the same as clicking on a green square (little green arrow markers will appear).

joshwithguitar · 2015-01-16 23:49:34

How about mousing over the green scores on the right showing you the possible red scores given that final score?

jere · 2015-01-17 03:32:01

I think that's what I'm suggesting here. If you do the same during the 3rd turn, I think you already get the resulting red scores.

edit: Nevermind. I was confused. I suppose that's another solution, but from a usability perspective it's a lot harder to mouse over 8 of those little tick marks as opposed to 8 tiles.

Last edited by jere (2015-01-17 12:43:07)

jasonrohrer · 2015-01-18 20:35:51

Well, I also want to preserve the behavior of the graph. You mouse over the graph to get a read on the number, not to alter/filter the graph according to what you moused over.

jasonrohrer · 2015-01-29 20:35:29

As I'm moving toward implementing this.... I'm realizing that it will be too confusing if it behaves this way.

The mousing over the board to affect the graph is already confusing enough (watching people play in person at PAX, I saw people sometimes inspecting the graph without realizing that their mouse was over the board and thus altering the graph).

It makes enough sense for it to alter the graph when you mouse over a colored column. This also limits what you can mouse over, which reduces the amount that the graph jumps around unexpectedly. For example, before pick 1, with no sliders placed, mousing over the board does NOTHING to alter the graph at all.

Finally, it sounds like what you're really asking for is a preview of pick 3 back-and-forth before making your turn-2 bet. It's not like you really want to mouse over a square (because 2 of those uncolored squares are gone in each column anyway), but you want to be able to test-drag the sliders before making your turn-2 bet. So, even if I implemented mousing over uncolored squares as if they were green, it wouldn't give you what you wanted (what you want is a full column preview). Having mouse-over behavior at the end of turn 2 provide full-column previews on the score graph would be extra confusing.

So, I'm going to table this for now. Maybe a better solution will emerge in the future.

Cobblestone · 2015-01-29 20:56:04

Clicking a moused-over colored square locks the graph preview, right?
What if that behavior were implemented for unassigned squares? Mouse-over does nothing as it does now, but one click assumes green, second click assumes red, third or click away unlocks.

jasonrohrer · 2015-01-29 21:48:19

That could work.

jere · 2015-01-29 22:05:18

Finally, it sounds like what you're really asking for is a preview of pick 3 back-and-forth before making your turn-2 bet. It's not like you really want to mouse over a square (because 2 of those uncolored squares are gone in each column anyway), but you want to be able to test-drag the sliders before making your turn-2 bet. So, even if I implemented mousing over uncolored squares as if they were green, it wouldn't give you what you wanted (what you want is a full column preview).

I didn't quite follow this. I don't see a difference between "mousing over uncolored squares as if they were green" and "full column preview" in the last round. If I pick a green square, we know the other column would be red.... maybe I'm missing something.

But anyway, if you were to pick up Cobblestone's suggestion, it's a moot point and I'm all for it!

I realize that you've got a lot of design constraints here, but I still think this is pretty important. jgw has mentioned the reason he's playing around with compilation is so he can make improvements to the UI (presumably things such as this proposal). It'd be nice if modders couldn't easily extract such a huge advantage.

jasonrohrer · 2015-01-29 23:11:17

Clicking on a cell says "Show me a graph as if I won this cell." If you're doing that at the end of turn 2, it will narrow your possible scores down to just one (your other two scores are set already).

Dragging column sliders does NOT do this. Instead, it says, "Show me a graph where I could get any of the four remaining numbers in this column."

Currently, clicking on a red cell does the same thing as above, but for your opponent (show me a graph where they scored this number for sure).

Anyway, this is why I think that clicking on a cell is not what you actually want here---you don't want to narrow your score graph down to one score. What you want is to be able to click a column for yourself at that point.

jere · 2015-01-29 23:46:26

Anyway, this is why I think that clicking on a cell is not what you actually want here---you don't want to narrow your score graph down to one score. What you want is to be able to click a column for yourself at that point.

If you're settled here, just stop me. But I think I get the confusion.

I don't want a full column preview. I don't want to see in total what my 4 possible scores are for a given column. I do want to check all 8 remaining numbers individually.

The reason is because the 4 numbers in a given column might each, when reviewed individually, give me the actual highest score in those 4 cases. I don't get that information from the full column preview because I don't see the relationships the same way (i.e. oh, I get THIS score and my opponent can't have THAT score).

The only reason I would want to "drag the sliders" is because that's how I currently access the information I'm describing (in conjunction with a hover).

The difference between what I'm suggesting and what we currently have is the difference between knowing you have a guaranteed win and being clueless to that fact on the 2nd turn bet.

Maybe you thought I was saying the full column preview shows four scores that are ALL above the red scores, but that's not it. Sorry if I was unclear.

Last edited by jere (2015-01-29 23:50:38)

jere · 2015-01-30 00:08:18

This should help?

First I check the the right column because it looks promising. The top row wouldn't give me the highest. Then I check the left column. Every row except one gives me the highest and even that one is tied for highest. I don't get any of that from the full preview.

computermouth · 2015-01-30 01:35:34

Honestly, I can't imagine a faster way for that to be done than the way you're doing it. I mean even if Jason programmed it in. Any controls would actually make the process slower for you in the long run, right? Phantom sliders for you to scroll up and down, pretending to be your opponents picks? You'd still have to scroll through each combination. Really, the way you're doing it looks like the best way it could be done. Maybe an overlay on top of each number for the range of scores possible from each pick? But how would that manifest? 16 more score bars?

jere · 2015-01-30 01:39:13

*sigh*

I'm not asking for a faster way to do it.

I'm asking for the option to do it during the 2nd turn betting.

computermouth · 2015-01-30 02:48:26

Oh, my bad.

But that would just kind of compound my statement, wouldn't it? That's 20 open numbers. 1 for you, 1 for your opponent, and ...what's the timer..? 60 seconds to gather information from the bazillion possible outcomes?

jere · 2015-01-30 03:03:59

I don't get what you're saying. Its the exact same calculation with the exact same board layout and info. The only thing that separates these two moments is a bet.

jere · 2015-01-30 03:10:26

Maybe it's the terminology getting in the way. What you're describing is what I call 1st turn betting

claspa · 2015-01-30 03:33:30

Thanks for this gif-file. I now fully understand what you're trying to say. I want to support your side, jere.
I think for clarification you could make a gif and show how the side changes during the bet, just to see the difference.

During the 2nd bet it does not show you directly that if you choose a certain colomn you will win certainly.

Last edited by claspa (2015-01-30 13:06:10)

computermouth · 2015-01-30 04:54:39

I must not be understanding. Because you can place your green and red sliders and hover over the tiles to do exactly what you're doing in the gif. You'd just have to move the sliders per column you wanted to check. Which I maintain would be a faster option than any other function that Jason could add in.

jere · 2015-01-30 12:12:33

Thanks claspa. Here's a screenshot that occurred moments before the gif above (now in 2nd turn betting). It's not a gif, but it might as well be one.

computermouth, I've totally failed to explain anything in this thread, so I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader to figure out what the problem is here...

Last edited by jere (2015-01-30 12:15:04)

claspa · 2015-01-30 13:14:46

Thanks for adding the picture.

Now, we can try to explain the problem again.

The grid of both pictures is exactly the same.

In the second picture (gif) if I move the cursor to a certain number it tells me the possible results if I choose this column and the other one for my opponent. You can see this in the picture, you get reduced data and more specific information.

In the first picture (not-gif) I don't get this view when you move the cursor to the same number. It shows you several possible results and data.

CORDIAL MINUET ENSEMBLE

#1 2015-01-16 03:16:25

Score preview before 3rd turn

#2 2015-01-16 07:16:37

Re: Score preview before 3rd turn

#3 2015-01-16 13:53:25

Re: Score preview before 3rd turn

#4 2015-01-16 18:57:26

Re: Score preview before 3rd turn

#5 2015-01-16 19:48:31

Re: Score preview before 3rd turn

#6 2015-01-16 22:26:22

Re: Score preview before 3rd turn

#7 2015-01-16 23:49:34

Re: Score preview before 3rd turn

#8 2015-01-17 03:32:01

Re: Score preview before 3rd turn

#9 2015-01-18 20:35:51

Re: Score preview before 3rd turn

#10 2015-01-29 20:35:29

Re: Score preview before 3rd turn

#11 2015-01-29 20:56:04

Re: Score preview before 3rd turn

#12 2015-01-29 21:48:19

Re: Score preview before 3rd turn

#13 2015-01-29 22:05:18

Re: Score preview before 3rd turn

#14 2015-01-29 23:11:17

Re: Score preview before 3rd turn

#15 2015-01-29 23:46:26

Re: Score preview before 3rd turn

#16 2015-01-30 00:08:18

Re: Score preview before 3rd turn

#17 2015-01-30 01:35:34

Re: Score preview before 3rd turn

#18 2015-01-30 01:39:13

Re: Score preview before 3rd turn

#19 2015-01-30 02:48:26

Re: Score preview before 3rd turn

#20 2015-01-30 03:03:59

Re: Score preview before 3rd turn

#21 2015-01-30 03:10:26

Re: Score preview before 3rd turn

#22 2015-01-30 03:33:30

Re: Score preview before 3rd turn

#23 2015-01-30 04:54:39

Re: Score preview before 3rd turn

#24 2015-01-30 12:12:33

Re: Score preview before 3rd turn

#25 2015-01-30 13:14:46

Re: Score preview before 3rd turn

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