Feedback on final AMULET CONTEST PAGE

jasonrohrer · 2015-04-30 21:25:02

It's secret, but it's up here for you to look at:

http://cordialminuet.com/forgotTunedDisco.php

claspa · 2015-04-30 21:55:02

Wow, brilliant! They look really great! Good job!

I am looking forward to it!

jere · 2015-04-30 22:58:43

Neat. What kind of feedback are you looking for? Is this the page that actually advertises the contest? If so, it takes a while to explain what's at stake and why you should play at least compared to this: http://thecastledoctrine.net/stealRealMoneyContest.php

Cobblestone · 2015-04-30 23:16:06

Awesome! Sufficiently cryptic, creepy, and informative.
I have to ask: I notice that the amulets are not in value order. Are you doing it where once you win one you're done, or if you win two do you get the better prize?
(IE: If a player somehow wins the silver on Day 3, the gold on Day 5, AND the copper on Day 8, which would be awarded?)

Last edited by Cobblestone (2015-04-30 23:19:16)

jasonrohrer · 2015-04-30 23:36:04

Yeah, that detail is not explained on the page (didn't want to clutter it too much), but if you win more than one amulet day, you decide which one to keep and the rest are passed on to the second place players on those days.

Maybe I'll add a line about that...

Also, they are not in order so that the gold and silver ones are toward the ends of the weeks, ending with two gold on the last Saturday and Sunday.

Cobblestone · 2015-04-30 23:53:33

Ok cool, that makes sense!
Also, I just noticed that the actual dates are listed there, and it's partially while I'm out of town! I totally knew this was going to happen!! Arg!!

EDIT: A gold on Mother's Day? That's just cruel!

Last edited by Cobblestone (2015-05-01 00:40:27)

jere · 2015-05-01 00:14:16

^Oh cool! I didn't notice that before. Are they the real dates though? That's only a week to advertise the game and launch contest, no? If they are the right dates, awesome. I'm only between terms for about that long.

Dan_Dan84 · 2015-05-01 03:16:43

EXCITED.

And yes, if those are indeed the final dates, then wow, talk about your SUDDEN CONTESTS. But it works out for me, because I've got some unexpected time off around then...

The amulets look great, of course. Strange-looking, but also desirable.

Feedback on the actual contest page...

-- I laughed out loud while reading it. I know the Cordial Minuet page style is supposed to be a parody of sorts, so I hope that's the sort of reaction you wanted.

-- I think the way the cabal is presented is pretty good, but it still omits the fact that Jason Rohrer will be a member of the cabal. So unless you've decided that you will step back and not play games as a cabal member during the contest, it should probably have something about how THE CREATOR will be playing, too. While the whole REAL GOLD and $MONEY$ stuff is eye-catching, I still think the whole "play against Jason Rohrer" thing is marketable (even though I suppose you'll never know that you've played against Jason, only against a cabal member...).

-- I think the beginning is engaging enough (especially since most people who see the page will already have heard about the contest through some other channel), so it's not a big deal that the details come later, lower on the page. Still, you could consider putting some picture near the top (be it a cryptic amulet-like drawing or a scan of one of the gold amulets).

-- I know you're looking at tweaks for the page, not the contest itself, but... I can't help wondering about the disparity between the cash prizes that accompany the amulets and the second, third, and fourth-place cash prizes. Only $10 for third and fourth place, but $100 and $200 for silver and gold amulets, which are already pretty amazing prizes in themselves?

-- Would someone be allowed to pull a CLEVER TRICK to win more than one cash prize during the contest? (And even if not colluding or using multiple accounts, but rather legitimately coming in 2nd-4th place more than once during the contest.)

-- Near the bottom: "Who MADE THE AMULETS? Who MADE THE GAME?" I think we all know the answer to that... Maybe... I kept trying to click on it, thinking it was a hyperlink.

Dan_Dan84 · 2015-05-01 03:21:15

Cobblestone wrote:

A gold on Mother's Day? That's just cruel!

Hey, if you're not willing to step over your own mother to win an amulet, then you just don't deserve it.

P.S. I see the server is down while Jason works on launch contest settings. After getting the message, I clicked the X, typed the % to quit, and then I got a Windows error message about "CM has stopped working." Not a big deal, but just FYI. (EDIT: Fixed, it seems)

Last edited by Dan_Dan84 (2015-05-01 11:48:28)

LiteS · 2015-05-01 05:24:32

Thoughts:

That last picture is really good, and gives a nice sense of how shiny they are. Great job polishing them!

I feel like the amulets need names, or at least pseudonyms. I'm not sure how transparent you want to be about what the demonic symbols represent.

The writing feels much more rough than the cordialminuet.com front and back page, and transitioning between somewhat cryptic language to explaining the contest seems like it could be done better.

I would eliminate contractions of the word "not", like you did (maybe unintentionally) on the current front and back page.

I'd suggest something along these lines after the "Read On" and before "AND THERE'S MORE", although admittedly I'm only imitating your style. I'm not sure you need a distinction between "Cabal coins" and "points", here's my attempt at combining them.

Over TWELVE days, ONE amulet will be won EACH DAY. The CABAL is rich, and you must feast on their wealth. Each coin of theirs you WIN will add to your coffers. But be warned! The GREED of the CABAL knows no bounds, and they will seek to reclaim their coins. Each net coin LOST will be taken away, till your coffers are BARREN. The day's amulet will become the prize of the GIFTED CHAMPION with the most CABAL COINS that day. Check on the LEADERBOARD to see if it is you who will WIN. Know this! The CABAL acts in secret, and they may strike at any moment. Do you know if you are being challenged by the CABAL? Here is the surprise you have been waiting for: YOU DO NOT.
If you have thought of a CLEVER TRICK to win more than one amulet, STOP RIGHT THERE, for it will not work. EXACTLY TWELVE WILL WIN AMULETS, although hundreds will TRY.
But will YOU try? Close your eyes for TEN SECONDS before answering: YES.

computermouth · 2015-05-01 07:32:45

Looks DOPE, am STOKED, get PAID.

Day 4 looks kind of like a SICK CAT, that WILL BE the one I GO FOR.

Last edited by computermouth (2015-05-01 07:34:52)

Cobblestone · 2015-05-01 08:59:10

computermouth wrote:

Day 4 looks kind of like a SICK CAT, that WILL BE the one I GO FOR.

That's the ONE I WANT. For exactly the SAME REASON.

jasonrohrer · 2015-05-01 16:06:25

Whoops... left the server in shutdown mode all night by accident.

Yes, it's supposed to make you laugh.

Will add pics of some amulets at the top.

LiteS, that's great feedback. It's true that I was feeling way less inspired for cyber-occult-charlatan writing this time around. I'll work on it a bit more.

Each one has a pseudonym, but it's mostly hidden (look at the leaderboard links).

claspa · 2015-05-01 16:40:58

I was wondering if you were doing intensive testing, as it was shutdown for so long

jasonrohrer · 2015-05-01 17:39:42

Okay, I worked on it some more.

http://cordialminuet.com/forgotTunedDisco.php

I've also upped the lower-place prizes exponentially to match the exponential blow-up of the first-place prizes. Second place is supposed to always be slightly less than half the money of first place.

This means I'll be giving away something like 2x more money, but so be it!

claspa · 2015-05-01 22:59:20

Just a question about the winning a medal and getting to choose system:

Let's just assume there are three medals in the contest:

Gold:
1. Adam
2. Biff
3. Cris

Silver:
1. Adam
2. Dave
3. Cris

Bronze:
1. Dave
2. Cris
3. Biff

Everyone wants the highest possible medal.

Adam can choose between Gold and Silver, he takes Gold.
This makes Dave eligable to get the Silver medal.

Can Dave go for Silver now or does he have to take the Bronze medal, as he was unfortunate enough to win this one?

jasonrohrer · 2015-05-01 23:10:25

I actually haven't proved that this algorithm works, but I would do this:

1. Everyone who has won more than one amulet picks one to keep.

2. Non-kept amulets are then won by the next-place player on that day.

3. Repeat 1 and 2 as long as anyone still has more than one.

This respects everyone's preferences, assuming their preferences are transitive (if Jane picks B over A, so drops A, and then later goes on to have someone drop C to her, and prefers C over B, we can assume she also prefers C over A, so her having already dropped A is not a problem).

In your example, Adam is the only one with two at the start, so he drops one, say silver. Then we return to step (1) and find Dave with two, so Dave can chose which to drop.

claspa · 2015-05-01 23:18:46

Oh interesting.
If there are several players who won more than one medal, who gets to choose first?
(Maybe it does not matter, I am also not sure for 100%)

Last edited by claspa (2015-05-01 23:21:28)

jasonrohrer · 2015-05-02 00:03:35

Yeah, I don't think it matters who chooses first. You just keep repeating the process until no one has more than one. They will all end up with their favorite amulet regardless of the order in which you do it.

I have discovered a truly marvellous proof of this, which this margin is too narrow to contain.

joshwithguitar · 2015-05-02 05:57:10

Theoretically, with 12 amulets the choosing process could go on for up to 121 days. This is of course extremely unlikely, especially as some amulets are clearly more attractive than others.

Last edited by joshwithguitar (2015-05-02 05:58:24)

LiteS · 2015-05-02 15:30:55

The current rules state not just one amulet per person, but also one Prize per person.

Splitting the second through fourth prizes like this is going to amplify the algorithm, especially considering second prize on day one is equal to fourth prize on day twelve. Running optimization on that would be much easier if you assume "Always choose the most money", but you still end up in some tricky situations where if I chose 4th day 12 instead of 2nd day 1, the prize distribution changes drastically.

claspa · 2015-05-02 16:12:22

This might be a blunt suggestion, but why not let the regular winners have the money prizes, so if you play consistently good you earned this.
Only that you can get one physical prize.

.. · 2015-05-02 17:21:07

So exactly 48 people will win a prize. I think that should be clearer. Back when the idea was that there would be 36 amulets it was clear that you had 36 chances to win a prize, now it appears at first glance that while there will be 12 amulet winners you have to be in the top 4 just to win a crummy $5, which sounds horrible.

So how many cabal members are you actually going to have? As many as you can trust? Seems like you'd need a lot to give people half a chance of playing a game per day against one, even with just one or two hundred players per day.

I assume you'll still see at the end of a game whether you were playing against a cabal member. I think this should be mentioned, possibly even on the page and not just the FAQ.

Frivolous stuff:

computermouth wrote:

Day 4 looks kind of like a SICK CAT, that WILL BE the one I GO FOR.

Probably why it's called TwoClaws

joshwithguitar wrote:

Theoretically, with 12 amulets the choosing process could go on for up to 121 days.

No, supposing that one iteration happens per day (Jason sends out emails and everyone responds), the maximum is 11 days, because at least one amulet is awarded per iteration, and I assume there's no point asking about the other prizes (do you want $50 or $10?). That worst case happens if player 1 came first for all 12 amulets, player 2 came second for all 11 that player 1 didn't want, etc, all the way to player 12.

jasonrohrer wrote:

Yeah, I don't think it matters who chooses first. You just keep repeating the process until no one has more than one. They will all end up with their favorite amulet regardless of the order in which you do it.

I agree with you. There is however the chance that the following occurs:
Gold 1:
1. Adam
2. Biff

Gold 2:
1. Biff
2. Adam

But Adam wants gold 2 and Biff wants gold 1. In that case they should talk to each other and agree to swap prizes, rather than complicating your prize awarding algorithm, so I'm only mentioning this because it's relevant to that proof of correctness :)

Last edited by .. (2015-05-02 17:23:40)

jasonrohrer · 2015-05-02 19:47:39

Yeah, that case is outside the scope of the algorithm, because no one won more than one. The contest does not guarantee a "stable matching." The post-contest algorithm guarantees that you will get the favorite prize among those of which you won.

I'm kinda going back and forth about whether someone can win more than one cash prize or not.

What I really don't want is 4 "usual suspects" swamping the whole thing and making everyone else feel like they have no chance. Also, if you win $5, you'll be trying for a bigger one anyway, right? So will you really be so sad to drop the $5 and replace it with a $10 or $20? Whatever other prize you win will always be 2x (or equal) the one you're dropping, right?

dot-dot, it turns out that hand-crafing amulets was a ton of work. I think it took me something like 3 weeks to make these 12. Making 36 was kinda out of the question, as cool as that number is. 12 is actually a bit cooler (6+6, the number of rows and columns in the game, and also 3+4+5, the sum of the smallest Pythagorean triple, and 12 is one of the most important occult numbers, given that we have 12 fingers). Anyway, I still have a callous on my right hand from all that wax carving!

The copper one is worth way less than $50, and the silver way less than $100, by metal weight alone, so the lesser-place cash prizes are supposed to be relative to the first place cash prizes.

I gotta be careful here, because the cash prizes already total $2000+, and there's $2000+ in the metal. So I'm well over $4K already on a game that made less than $1K over 8 months of alpha testing (total rake is $1200, but don't forget all those test prizes I paid out along the way).

With a pay-to-play Steam game like TCD, it made $50K during pre-steam alpha testing, so it was safe to give $3K+ of prizes away in the launch contest. This is much riskier. There have been $17K in player deposits, but I only rake a tiny fraction of that.

Professor Chin · 2015-05-02 23:06:06

I would prefer that no more than one cash prize per person is allowed.

It would keep people motivate to fight event for 5th or 6th place (or more) if the usual suspects get always on top

The fact that the gold amulet's weight is increasing should motivate the day 5 gold winner to fight in at last two days...

CORDIAL MINUET ENSEMBLE

#1 2015-04-30 21:25:02

Feedback on final AMULET CONTEST PAGE

#2 2015-04-30 21:55:02

Re: Feedback on final AMULET CONTEST PAGE

#3 2015-04-30 22:58:43

Re: Feedback on final AMULET CONTEST PAGE

#4 2015-04-30 23:16:06

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#5 2015-04-30 23:36:04

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#6 2015-04-30 23:53:33

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#7 2015-05-01 00:14:16

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#8 2015-05-01 03:16:43

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#9 2015-05-01 03:21:15

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#10 2015-05-01 05:24:32

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#11 2015-05-01 07:32:45

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