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#226 Re: Main Forum » New idea for a tournament structure---feedback, please » 2015-01-05 00:05:55

The game limit sounds like the best option. Maybe 2 games instead of just 1 because you expect some variance in how often you encounter people. I dunno. Either way, that makes the dummy account approach very costly.

At first an Elo cap sounded as good, but two equally skilled players could fluctuate around the same Elo for a while (and they might rejoin often because they exit at the same time). If it was near the end, that would be good I suppose. The top 2 players should be fighting for the top spot. But if those same two players met each other in the beginning, they'd both stick around 1000.

#227 Re: Main Forum » New idea for a tournament structure---feedback, please » 2015-01-04 02:43:47

Very solid solution. I wonder if Elo has ever been used this way in other games/tournaments.

I think using the same provisional Elo thing, where your first X games don't change the Elo of the other player if the other player is established, would help here.  You'd need so many dummy accounts that the entry fees would trump the prize.

Hmmm, here's my gut reaction on how this could be broken. I assume X would have to be something like 5 (most people played less than 10 games in the last tournament).

Make three accounts: Alice, Bob, Chuck. Alice joins the stakes hoping no one else is waiting. If someone is waiting, Alice leaves immediately.  Otherwise, Bob joins and wins all the coins for a fairly large Elo gain.

Rinse, repeat 5 times. The Elo siphoning between the two drops off a bit, but still gives a boost to Bob. You do this whole thing again between Bob and Chuck. This time Chuck wins all the coins and Bob's Elo doesn't drop off for the first 5 games (he's established and Chuck isn't).

The leaving shouldn't be too much of an Elo/$ hit, because you're only losing one coin. No more 5 coin starting rake.

I did some calculations and it looks like within those 10 games (ignoring leaving costs) Bob gets to 1107 and Chuck piggybacks off that score to 1174. As a baseline comparison, an honest player matching up against a line up of players with 1000 Elo ends up at 1181 in the course of 10 games in which they win 100% of the pot. And that's rather optimistic for the honest player. I won the boxing day tournament by profiting roughly 3 table stakes (way below 10). Another point of reference is that on the current Elo boards all but 3 players are below 170 (analogous to 1170, right) and they've had weeks to get there.

The cheaters do have to contend with finding each other, but their "games" are extremely fast. $15 for a ~ $50 prize .... well hopefully a huge turnout inflates that. smile

I think the Elo bracketing would help solve this situation. Sorry for the rambling...

#228 Re: Main Forum » The Tragedy of Judge Doorman » 2015-01-02 19:58:31

cullman, you've made Cordial Minuet history here. if you ever decide you want to play with some of us plebeians, occasionally there are some of us in this chatroom: http://us19.chatzy.com/88872904022107

#229 Re: Main Forum » The Tragedy of Judge Doorman » 2015-01-02 14:58:05

Weird how Nate's Elo has jumped 60 points while playing Doorman. I'll believe he's possible the best player, but is that really expected?

#230 Re: Main Forum » The Tragedy of Judge Doorman » 2015-01-02 14:13:03

What's 3 grand to a ******** like me, can you please remind me?

#231 Re: Main Forum » The Tragedy of Judge Doorman » 2015-01-02 13:22:02

Nope. I think I'm the idiot for not leaving $100 in my account.

#232 Re: Main Forum » The Tragedy of Judge Doorman » 2015-01-02 12:47:51

Ugh. I wish I could get in on that sweet doorman money. It just never stops.

#233 Re: Main Forum » The Tragedy of Judge Doorman » 2015-01-02 12:24:27

Heh. I will.

Congrats to Nate. First one to cross $1000 profit.

#234 Re: Main Forum » Why do people quit immediately? » 2015-01-02 03:35:36

What's really annoying me is people leaving a game only to start the same stakes game immediately even though the previous game was super close.

#235 Re: Main Forum » Why do people quit immediately? » 2015-01-02 03:05:48

If you leave before the final payout animation finishes, I don't think you pay for the 2nd coin.

And as a thought experiment, what if it were true? You'd be paying an extra 1 coin "fee" for a chance at one round. Wouldn't it make a lot more sense to play the whole game and only have to pay that extra coin once for all the many rounds you played?

#236 Re: Main Forum » New idea for a tournament structure---feedback, please » 2015-01-01 21:38:06

Sounds interesting. My initial concern is that you can't freely leave a table without falling behind AND you get kicked from tables too with a hefty Elo penalty. Ok, I get it. You're punishing people who are dragging things out, but what if you get matched up with someone who drags the game out. Talk about bad luck. Imagine someone who folds after every first betting round (a best case). They could drag out a game to 3 hours and there's absolutely nothing you can do in response. In the last format, you could always leave a slow game.

If these stakes appear alongside normal games, you should really considering highlighting them as being part of a tournament. With 50% rake and losing everything if you leave, it would really come as a shock to someone stumbling into a tournament game.

#237 Re: Main Forum » The Tragedy of Judge Doorman » 2015-01-01 13:20:58

The lesson here is that when you start playing this game, gamble $100's of dollars right away without practicing. That's the kind of high level strategic advice that players like Creature Expression would never tell your because it's TOO PRO.

Ah yes, I've seen the error of my ways. This is great advice here. Not only do you get to lose hundreds of dollars to Nate, but he'll also throw in a thread calling you out as a loser. Maybe it'd be easier to just send the money directly. Nate, who should we write the checks out to?

IIRC, Cullman was quite a baller on the The Castle Doctrine forums. He would offer people $50 who got to his safe. I was hoping to be able to playing Judge Doorman. Hopefully more high rollers will come on board.

#238 Re: Main Forum » Leaderboards » 2014-12-30 15:19:08

Whoa. We've got our first high roller. Someone has put in nearly $500!

And it looks like Nate is somehow up a huge amount too.

#239 Re: Main Forum » Random Button? » 2014-12-29 17:09:30

This thread makes me wish I had a real world pair of dice to use for this game. One green, one red, both with the different hebrew characters on them. I think that would fit both the occult/gambling theme nicely.

#241 Re: Main Forum » How Elo ratings work » 2014-12-29 03:13:32

Prior to the Season 2 rating system remake, Elo decayed over time when you were above 1400 Elo:[6]

Elo decayed at a rate of 50 Elo for Diamonds, 35 Elo for Platinums, 25 Elo for Golds, 10 Elo for Silver, and 0 Elo for Bronze for every 4 consecutive weeks of inactivity and every 7 days thereafter.

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Elo_rating_system

Not sure if the logic can be pulled directly, but daily sounds a bit too harsh.

#242 Re: Main Forum » How Elo ratings work » 2014-12-29 02:48:30

Wow, cool! It's neat how you rolled through the logs to generate this.

Here's something you might find interesting. I convinced a friend to get into the game just for the tournament (Inducement Vanity). We played a couple dozen practice ($0.01) games beforehand and the only other time he played was the tournament. Somehow he's at #3 Elo. I'd like to think it was due to my superb coaching, but I have another hypothesis. I was losing a fair number of games against him because instead of playing conservatively, I was seeing games out to the finish. I wanted to first explain the game fully and then see if his bets were actually reasonable. I wonder if all those practice games gave him a high Elo because I would have had a high Elo? Anyway, what a way to introduce a game to a friend: "hey, all you had to do is play for a few hours and you won $10 and are now the #3 player!" smile

There's one more problem:  Elo ratings tend to encourage strong players to stop playing to protect their high rating.  That's a problem for another day, though.

I suppose this is why League of Legends has Elo decay.

#243 Re: Main Forum » Why do people quit immediately? » 2014-12-28 21:59:58

The leaving problem has been discussed for a while. Some claim it is because the player is frustrated by a low number and leaves (how you would know they got a low number is beyond me).

If you joined their game, then the simplest explanation is they walked away from the computer or failed to hear the notification that you had joined.

It could also be that sometimes they just had to run. Guilty here.

#244 Re: Main Forum » Leaderboards » 2014-12-27 21:18:44

Haha! I don't need to be #1, just thought it was weird how all the top people dropped off. This looks much better but I don't quite understand it fully. What's the meaning of "buy in" term in this calculation?

#245 Main Forum » Creature Expression's Pro Tips [All Secret Incantations Inside!] » 2014-12-27 17:51:37

jere
Replies: 6

Having won the first tournament and, before that, being #1 on the leaderboards, I thought it'd be a good time to share some ideas on strategy. If you've been playing for a while, you may already know all of this. Because Cordial Minuet does the math for you, the learning curve appears to be pretty shallow. Which is great news for beginners! This is not a how-to-play guide. For that, check out Zach Fleeman's video.

CM is largely about mind games. It's about avoiding cognitive biases, avoiding fallacies, and exploiting the same in your opponent. These cognitive biases are how we normally think, so it takes some practice to move beyond them.

The Four Virtues of Cordial Minuet

Humility
Start out with $0.01 games and practice on those for longer than you think necessary. The higher the stakes, the more skilled the players. And you won't be very good to start. There are sharks out there eagerly waiting to take your money. When you're ready, try out a few $0.10 games to see if you can stomach higher losses.

Discipline
The best advice I can give you is Asminthe's Bankroll Management. To summarize: once you're ready to play for reals, stick to stakes equal to 1/20th of your current account value. The neat part is that its literally IMPOSSIBLE for you to lose all your money if you do stakes as a percentage of your bankroll. I followed this advice and grinded my way from $10 to $40. Low stakes gives you the confidence to play aggressively when need be and when you lose it won't be the end of the world.

The discipline part comes into play when you see a higher game and you think "just this once." You lose that game and your opponent starts a game even higher (probably their goal all along). You join that game, go on tilt, and lose a bunch of money. Don't do it. Ignore this advice at your peril. I've already witnessed the fallout of not following it.

Patience
Players tend to get impatient after several rounds and begin playing recklessly. This was compounded significantly in the time-limited format of the tournament! Good play involves folding a lot, even though that seems boring. Unless you're clairvoyant, most of your picks will be mediocre. Accept that.

Sometimes you'll get bullied by someone who bets 20 coins on every opening pick. No worries. You only need to win 5% of rounds to beat them.

Never convince yourself that your opponent "can't have a good hand again." This is gambler's fallacy.

Greed
Well, duh. Praise be to Minoson.


Column Picking

The goal: predict your opponent's moves and make yourself unpredictable.

The first tip here is that, at least some of the time, you should be picking randomly. I use a dice roller to make this easy. The dice roller has the added benefit of recording which columns I picked in the first round (which I would otherwise have to write down).

The most advanced thing you can do is to record those picks, so in the last couple rounds you can learn something about what your opponent gives themselves. This is very difficult to do, but will up your game if you can manage. Ideally, you'd review every single pick but that's beyond me.

Any sort of column picking strategy can be countered. Even random play can be exploited (just pick the column with 3 high numbers and you've got a 50-50 shot of having a great opening).

Here are some common strategies. Remember, these can apply to later rounds as well.

Given to you by opponent: lowest high number
The opponent finds the row with the lowest maximum number and gives it to you. This one is damn common and some players will use it nonstop. If you can predict this, you will have the advantage in most rounds. However, it can still be challenging to play against. It's a smart play for your opponent because it compresses your possible scores. Many times, it's less important to win the scoreboard then to APPEAR like you've won the scoreboard.

ldr1dH0.png

Given to you: a single high number
The opponent gives you something like a row with a single 33 or 34 and no other high numbers. This means on most rounds that this is awarded, you will have a mediocre starting pick. I use this a lot myself.

Opponent gives themselves: highest sum of high numbers
They might consistently give themselves a row that has two or three high numbers in it. For them, it appears smart because they've got a 33-50% chance of a great pick and the rest of the time, they can fold. But if you find them doing this, it is easily countered.

Ordering bias
Some players seem to be biased to a particular side of the board such as awarding you the last row frequently or only giving you one of the first 3 rows.

Another strategy you can try: give yourself a column that, if you get a high number in it, cancels out the highest score in the column you give them. It only works occasionally, but when it does you have a clear cut advantage.

zLdjAZj.png


Seeing What Your Opponent Sees and Crossing Things Out

This is something I don't think mid level players are doing enough.

Take the last round for example. You see 8 numbers (4 rows of 2). Often, you might think, "My opponent will surely give me this 1, so I have to avoid picking the column with the 1." Sometimes it feels like you always get that lowest number, but remember that your opponent is not seeing the same 8 numbers that you are. Two of those rows you see are already gone, so that 1 has a 50% of not even being available anymore. Furthermore, the greened out columns that you picked are still around for your opponent. You have to pay attention to what's in those even though it's initially tempting to think they're not important. Even if the 1 is still around, it may be less than significant than a 2 and a 3 in another row that you happen to know are gone.

EIWyUaM.png

The same applies to the 2nd round. If your first round picks for yourself eliminated some high or low numbers, remind yourself that the opponent still has to consider them.

Finally, if you're REALLY good at predicting your opponent, you can mentally "cross out" rows that they have awarded themselves. If they bet uncharacteristically high on the first round and there is only one high number in their column (like a 36), chances are they have that row. For the rest of the game, you can pretend like it's not even there. You can safely ignore any low numbers in that row because you've mentally eliminated them. Alternatively, a bet may signal only that they don't have a low number and you can be sure that those rows will stick around for later. This all assumes that you actually guessed correctly though...


Betting

Ideally, you would invest more when you have a higher chance of winning. When you were sure of victory, you would all-in. But Cordial Minuet is about not giving away your position, so betting according to your strength doesn't always work.

Tell your opponent what they want to hear

Your opponent has some concept of what a bluff, value bet (opposite of a buff), and limping looks like. Craft a bet that fits what they expect. For your average player, these might look the following:

Value bet (indicating a strong hand): 50%-100% of the pot. For example, if each player has already bet 10 coins, weaker players will almost always be willing to bet 10 more to continue, even in a weaker position.

Bluff: Something bordering on ludicrous, like double or triple the current pot. Also relevant: spending a lot of time making a decision.

Limping: betting the minimum possible (perhaps 0). Or risking 1 coin on the chance that the opponent has a really bad hand

So figure out what your opponent thinks is likely a bluff or limping and give them that when you actually have a strong hand. And scare them off with a meager "value bet" when you want them to fold.

As players get more advanced and they start second guessing these notions, you will have to modify your approach. The hard part is figuring out what kind of player you're up against.

Keep in mind that some people, especially beginners, can't be bluffed. This is actually good because it also means they can't be scared off.

A note on all-ins
Betting everything you have when you're guaranteed to win can be efficient (especially in a tournament), but a strong player typically won't fall for it. Until you figure out the strength of your opponent, however, it may be worth trying a couple all-ins to test the waters (only when you have a guaranteed win though).

If someone tries to all-in when they might have the highest score, they're almost certainly trying to fleece you. I won't say never because that would be too predictable, but you should very rarely call them on this, ESPECIALLY if a low amount of money is at stake.

I've seen people all-in on the last round when the pot only had 8 coins. Think about that. Why would your opponent risk 90 coins trying to make you fold when only 8 can be gained? This can only mean a strong hand to me.


Common scoreboard situations

Your actual score is the highest score
This is your time to shine! Reveal a low number, but the lowest possible number may be too obvious. Get your opponent to bet as much as possible, but don't scare them off. The absolute best case is that the pot is heavy from your opponent driving the bets (they have a pretty good score and you haven't tipped off your high score). An all-in might work, though it's only really likely if the pot is already huge.

fqVqiOl.png
Life doesn't get better than this

Your opponent might have the highest score and you have crap
Fold, son. A bluff would only work in rare situations.

Your opponent might have the highest score and you have the second highest
The most tense moments of Cordial Minuet!! If your opponent has it, they're going to play you for as much as possible. If they don't, they will try to bully you with fears of the former. Maybe you'll get lucky and they're not able to reveal the highest number. For that reason, I will sometimes still reveal a low number even though I'm scared to death (because a high one would just make them fold). There's one other piece of knowledge I've acquired on this:

0yVX9cE.png

In the very last round, you are shown two possible scores for your opponent. This seems like a 50-50 shot, but it's not. I came up with this because it looks very similar to the Monty Hall Problem. If you can accept the solution to that problem, the CM version is straightforward. Because your opponent will almost always choose to reveal the highest number (whether they have that number or a lower one), it is like the first door in the Monty Hall Problem. All but 1 of the remaining "doors" gets eliminated. And thus, the probability that they actual have that high pip is 1/6. In general, this means they probably don't have the highest number. Some caveats: a strong player might consistently get great scores. Also, earlier betting make give away their strength. And finally, please don't blow your whole bankroll because jere said you had an 83.3% chance to win (you know, the same odds you get in Russian roulette).

Other pro tips

For humility, watch Rounders. I just saw it the other night for the first time on Amazon Instant; it's a poker cult classic and almost all of the concepts translate to Cordial Minuet. When you're done, watch this gif on loop:

777.gif

Then to balance out the humility, watch this cool

#246 Re: Main Forum » Leaderboards » 2014-12-27 13:41:54

But wait... if you use a $200 prize to keep playing, and you go up to $400, and lets say that you started with $20, your profit ratio shouldn't be computed based on the starting 20, right?  That would be a profit ratio of 20x.  Really, your profit ratio should be more like 2x at that point (the 20 has become irrelevant).

I guess the logic checks out, but it's not currently realistic. That'd be very a long grind to $400 with the stakes people are willing to play. Besides, a lot of people will tend to immediately withdraw some of their winnings (both myself and 2nd place already have) because, well, I can't reasonably justify to my wife keeping hundreds of dollars locked up in a gambling game.

Having thought about it, inevitably profit ratio will favor the "poorer" players and profit will favor the "richer" players. And I suppose it's actually good that there are ladders for both groups to try to climb.

#247 Re: Main Forum » Leaderboards » 2014-12-26 20:45:40

So I was curious how the winnings would affect the leaderboards. Obviously the dollar balance is changed and that's fine, but I was surprised to see that it changes the profit ratio board too. I'm guessing it's because winnings are treated the same as normal deposits.

#248 Re: Main Forum » [UPDATED] Boxing Day TOURNAMENT » 2014-12-26 20:40:42

Thanks, Jason. Very generous considering the outcome. Bummer that it didn't attract more people. Maybe people stayed away from this because the game is technically still in a private alpha/beta? I remember reading that the TCD contest paid for itself, but I wonder if that had to do with significant coverage from gaming websites. And then I wonder if a gambling game paying out REAL MONEY is really going to be news? Maybe a future tournament with physical prizes (themed appropriately) might help.

On that topic, I think that the extra tribute does almost nothing to prevent collusion, because it's easy to synchronise starting a game in two clients to within a few seconds and you would need hundreds of active players to avoid that. One possible solution to both that and the mixing problem is random delays on joining a game.

Well, the current solution is pretty clever. It just shows the stakes even if no one is there. So if you try to join, you might start waiting OR you might join a rando. With the small number of players, it's definitely easier.

[edit]: One data point: I actually got a friend to join in the tournament and we were on Raid Call while playing. We never encountered each other though (confirmed by the data below). During the time I was waiting several minutes for a game, we could have shifted a lot of money if we had wanted, but in many other cases we would have been matched with others.

#249 Re: Main Forum » [UPDATED] Boxing Day TOURNAMENT » 2014-12-26 20:05:43

Thanks! Uh. I left a few slow tables because they weren't going anywhere. The key to winning this was convincing LOTS of people to all-in against their better judgement. And since it's time limited, there is a lot of pressure to all-in.

In fact, I feel victim to this on my first game in the tournament and I was sure I was doomed at that point...

#250 Re: Main Forum » [UPDATED] Boxing Day TOURNAMENT » 2014-12-26 20:01:48

These are aliases. You would have been sent one in your email.

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