You are not logged in.

#1 Re: Main Forum » $10 Tournament on Saturday, May 30 » 2015-05-29 20:44:46

I really like this tournament structure, and would love to play, but I'll probably be on the beach. Sorry.

#2 Re: Main Forum » NPR: Casinos Looking at Skilled-Based Gambling » 2015-05-27 13:27:25

I play a lot of Netrunner tournaments at local game shops. The way they work is people pay a small entry fee, usually $5. We play swiss rounds and there are participation prizes for everyone. That way nobody feels like they wasted their time and entry fee if they don't win. The winners get better prizes. Some stores even turn the entry fee into store credit and distribute it. So if 10 people show up and pay $5 each, that's $50 in store credit that gets distributed among the top players something like $20, $15, $10, $5 to the top 4 finishers respectively.

There are currently no competitive online multiplayer games offering this kind of tournament format that I know of. I would love to be able to sit down at my computer at any time, pay $5, play 3 to 5 rounds of a skill-based game, get a prize no matter what, but have the chance of a big prize if I win.

CM has the problem that the tournaments can't be spontaneous since there isn't enough player base. I live in NYC, and the timing of every event that has been had so far has been inconvenient for me. Also, there's no prize that can be offered besides money. In other games you can offer participation prizes like skins and whatnot.

#3 Re: Main Forum » NPR: Casinos Looking at Skilled-Based Gambling » 2015-05-25 20:39:28

The reason US gambling laws are as they are is pretty simple. Right now gambling is only allowed in a few places such as Vegas and Atlantic City, as well as a few others. This means if you want to gamble you have to travel to those places. By centralizing it, they can make big money. Hotels, shows, restaurants, and the gambling itself.

Now imagine if gambling were legal everywhere. There's a slot machine in the Buffalo Wild Wings near your house. There's a tiny casino in your town. That casino isn't going to make much money at all. Nobody is going to get rich on that without the economy of scale. But the big casinos in vegas can't survive if gambling is legal everywhere. It only works because it's in a few places. The Internet is ruining this for them, case in point, Atlantic City.

Not to mention the fact that its seen as a vice which attracts shady characters. People want to visit it, but they don't want to live near it. On the Internet you don't have this problem.

As for coin pushing machines, this video is an absolute must-see.

This game is astonishing.

#4 Re: Main Forum » NPR: Casinos Looking at Skilled-Based Gambling » 2015-05-25 14:34:09

In the segment they are suggesting a single player skill based game. That I think is a very very bad idea. They are underestimating the capacity of gamers to practice and come clean them out. They think they can adjust the payout so they always profit, but I don't see that happening.

Say for example, they offered Tetris, a very addictive and popular game. People are already willing to pay 25 cents to play a Tetris arcade machine and not get anything back even if they win. Now imagine a Tetris machine that paid out to winners. Even assuming that a lot of people play, few will sit there for long. The reason to play Tetris on the machine instead of their phone is the chance of winning. They will test their skill a few times to see if they are capable of winning. If they aren't, they'll stop playing since they can just play on their phone for free.

Meanwhile, the grandmasters will descend. When they find out their is a game they can reliably win, and get paid to do so, they will play Tetris all day. To profit off them, they will have to make the payouts so low for winners, or the difficulty so high, that nobody will even want to play in the first place.

It has to be a CM-like game where the casino takes Jason's role. But will people really be interested? If they're already in the same room together in a casino, and they want to bet against each other. Why let the casino take a cut? Just bet with each other at a table in your hotel room. What is the casino providing that you're going to let them take your money? Jason is providing software and technology services.

#5 Re: Main Forum » Out-there idea for a "better" game » 2015-05-19 20:46:10

Dan_Dan84 wrote:
jasonrohrer wrote:

What's missing from this game that Poker has is really lack of information.  That moment when you have AA and your opponent has no way of knowing is the sweetest gameplay moment in the world.  Yes, "luck" has something to do with it (it's like the heavens have aligned for just you at that moment).  But there's also just something amazing about being in the wise when your opponent knows nothing.  Having the secret way-upper hand.

So I was thinking about this: the excitement of knowing something your opponent doesn't know you know that gives you a major advantage. But, because of the skill-based nature of CM, it can't be hidden information given to you by chance (as is the case with AA in Holdem).

I remembered this thread from a while back, which discussed ways of reducing anti-climactic situations in the game. There was talk of adding little "trickster" functions, such as an extra high tick on the score graph, or an extra first-pick column that you select to tell your opponent which column you did not pick for green.

This got me thinking, and since we're talking about "out-there" ideas... Here are two "tricks" I thought of:

1) Choose your green column after you see which row your opponent gave you.

2) Click on a red square. If it goes dark, your opponent does not have it. If the rest of the column goes dark, then it means your opponent has it. In both cases, the score graph updates to reflect this additional information.

These tricks, of course, would not be unlimited. Perhaps you can use one every three or six rounds or something.

The information you get, especially from the second trick, could give a real advantage-- and there's no way your opponent would know that you used it. You click on that 33 and it goes dark, revealing that you indeed have the highest score, while your opponent thinks he can bully you with a high score potential. Alternatively, if the column goes dark and the 33 stays illuminated, you know you should fold.

Anyway, just an idea I had to mirror some of those "secret way-upper hand" moments in Poker. I know these tricks would somewhat affect the purity of the game, but it might also help with some of the issues we've been discussing.

A good way to implement tricks or special abilities is to make it so that if you use one, you must make a minimum wager on the next betting round before being able to fold. This introduces an interesting bluff where you can make your opponent believe you used your power when you didn't.

#6 Re: Main Forum » Out-there idea for a "better" game » 2015-05-18 12:33:35

What you say about order theory isn't wrong. Yet, I think you are too close to the problem, and are missing the big picture. The lack of excitement and drama in CM stems from something much more fundamental. Drama comes from uncertainty. Uncertainty comes from luck. Luck has been entirely, or almost entirely, removed from CM. If you want drama, you have to add in luck, which is pretty much contrary to the core principle of the game. Legally it also means removing the real money.

#7 Re: Main Forum » Front Row Crew's GeekNights Podcast » 2015-05-14 18:38:48

I was going to tell you about it, but you found it all on your own.

Also, our podcast is called GeekNights.

#8 Re: Main Forum » Fundamental issues that limit critical mass » 2015-05-14 14:35:03

The_Doctor wrote:

A big problem I see at the moment is, that there are practically no people streaming / "Let's playing" the game. If you do a search for Cordial Minuet on YouTube you basically find nothing. Streams / YouTube videos could potentially spark more interest for the game.
So I'd encourage everyone who does streaming or maybe wants to try it to stream CM or upload CM videos to YouTube.

I was thinking about doing a stream, but there are some issues with that. I'd want to put in an extensive delay so any potential opponent watching the stream couldn't cheat me. Also, to make the stream interesting for viewers I would have to discuss my line of thinking. Any opponent watching the stream, could figure me out, and then beat me in a subsequent round. Also, there isn't a critical enough mass of players to make it so people wouldn't know they are playing against me.

That said, I'll give it a go anyway.

#9 Re: Main Forum » Problems I have with anonymity and match length » 2015-05-12 14:31:43

What you seem to think is a negative aspect, is actually a positive aspect. The game is hard and rewards better players. That is a good thing. If better players are hiding their strategies during the first rounds, then you should be doing the same thing as well.

#10 Re: Main Forum » Share your graphics! » 2015-05-12 02:57:13

Great idea! I think I will do something similar.

#11 Re: Main Forum » What's your favorite first round strategy? » 2015-05-11 19:35:41

There are three very basic strategies for picking my row, and the opposite of those 3 for my opponent's row. I pick two at random that don't conflict. I know the opponent is trying to figure out if I follow a pattern, so they can counter it, so I want to give them some false info to start.

1) Give my opponent a row with all bad/middling numbers to minimize their score.
2) Find a row that has the highest quantity of low numbers, to increase the odds they get a bad row.
3) Random.

The counter rules for picking my own column

1) Pick the column that gives the highest score in the row they would pick if they were following strategy 1 above.
2) Assuming they pick according to rule 2 above, pick the row with the best score.
3) Random

When I do random, I actually roll a d6.

I only do this in the earliest few rounds at low stakes to gauge my opponent's behavior.

#12 Re: Main Forum » Perfect Score » 2015-05-11 19:26:35

jasonrohrer wrote:


Did you notice the lights dim in the room, or a door slam, or anything?

I was at work with headphones on. I must have missed it.

#13 Main Forum » Perfect Score » 2015-05-08 20:43:50

Replies: 20

Has anyone else ever achieved a perfect score of 105 in a round? I just hit it for the first time. Sorry opponent! You weren't bad. Your score was also very high, so it's understandable that you called my bet. I would have done the same thing in your position.


#14 Re: Main Forum » Yikes, a month and 10 days gone... » 2015-04-02 12:45:25

Why can't we just have a good old fashioned tournament? It's not exciting or unique, but it works. It could be swiss, single elimination, or any of the other tried and true tournament formats. It's easier to find a way for people to schedule 5-10 minutes to play a game against each other than it is to try to beat collusion. There could be an entry fee to get into the tournament, so if someone wants to enter a whole bunch of accounts, so be it. All the entry fees would combine into a prize pool that would be distributed amongst the top few players.

#16 Re: Main Forum » Slow play or slow server? » 2015-02-28 17:22:19

I do agree that aspects such as thoughtfulness and strategy should be encouraged over tactics like bullying. Someone who makes better decisions should always win over someone who decides poorly. However, I still feel that speed should be a greater factor than it is today.

The closest example I can think of in another game is the hurry up offense in NFL football. They have rules in place such that you can't go so fast as to unfairly deceive the other team. Opponents always have an opportunity to see your formation and arrange their defense accordingly. Despite this, you can still speed things up such that you gain a significant advantage over an opponent that is too slow.

Playing quickly shouldn't confer enough of an advantage to make up for bad decision making, but making good choices quickly should win out over taking a full minute to make equally good decisions.

#17 Re: Main Forum » Slow play or slow server? » 2015-02-27 21:14:05

jere wrote:

I get that you prefer playing fast, but many of us don't. I think your best bet is to find someone like minded (through here or the CM chat room) and play against them under the conditions of a gentleman's agreement to take shorter turns.

Personally, I'd hate to have to make a move 5s within my opponent. Besides the fact that I am slow thinker, every game would have the potential to turn into a coin toss: your opponent just all-ins and immediately selects moves at random and you are forced to make a guess without time to evaluate. No thanks.

I also think you're underestimating the complexity of this game. There may not be the possibility space that Go has, but Cordial Minuet has a layer Go lacks: hidden information and trying to read your opponent. Sure, I only have 12 choices on the second turn. But I also have to consider 60 permutations of my opponent's row at the end of that turn (1st turn red row and 2nd turn red/green rows). I have to consider what my opponent is thinking, what they're thinking I'm thinking, what they're thinking that I'm thinking that they're thinking, and so on. I don't see how you can be considering all this in 5 seconds.

Yes, that random rush strategy is a problem. There would need to be some sort of minimum time to prevent that.

As for the other part. I'll just say this. If you are trying to think what your opponent is thinking, that explains why your are taking so long. I make my decisions completely based upon the numbers. Psychoanalysis of the opponent is unnecessary and suboptimal. Doubly so since you can't even see the opponent, and they could even be a bot.

#18 Re: Main Forum » Slow play or slow server? » 2015-02-27 21:02:05

storeroom leaflet wrote:

Well I could easily have been one of these players you're annoyed about Apreche. I was worried I might annoy someone so sorry. It usually takes me that long to figure out what's going on, though. Unfortunately the game also encourages players to go close to the time limit at a couple of points even if their decision is easy: 1. When they have an easy decision but don't want the other player to know that it's easy. 2. With the simultaneous betting if you take up to the time limit to make your bet then if you have to wait you know your opponent didn't bet as much as you did at the first opportunity. I don't think there's a right answer for whether short or long time limits are better though, the game would just be different, and I'd also enjoy faster games. 1 minute per decision is much longer than you typically get per decision in online poker, say, which is what the game this gets compared to, (it's actually much longer than you typically even get per decision in online go). For this reason I'm sure this time limit is part of the experience Jason is trying to get with the game. That time limit means players can think more deeply about there moves and increases the investment (and so tension) in each board. It also makes it feel more like a strategy game and probably does less to encourage problem gambling.

In other strategy games like chess, go or poker the player creating the game usually gets to decide between a few options for time limits on thinking. I'd be for adding this option, though for tournaments/promotions you would probably need a fixed time limit depending on the structure.

Yeah, I forgot about that. I tend to assume that if someone best a large amount right away that they are not bluffing. But if they wait a bunch before bidding, it's more likely that they had to consider it more and it was a harder decision.

#19 Re: Main Forum » Slow play or slow server? » 2015-02-27 20:15:15

In Go, you can place your stone anywhere on the board. The board is 19x19. There are hundreds of possibilities to consider. Multiply that by the possibilities of just one more turn into the future, and it's in the thousands. It's understandable that it takes a long time to decide anything in Go. That's just one of the reasons I don't enjoy play Go, even though I highly respect it as a game.

In Minuet there are far fewer possible options to consider. There are only 30 possible positions on turn 1. 12 possible positions on turn 2. 2 possible positions on turn 3. Then 3 possible choices of what to reveal. Even the first turn shouldn't take very long.

Primarily I just want to be able to play the game faster. Less waiting means more games and more playing. Nobody likes waiting. I do understand that if someone has real money riding on a decision they would want to take their time with it. I'm not going to beat around the bush. I want to deny my opponents the luxury of that time.

As challenging as it may be to make the right decision, it's more challenging to make the right decision quickly and under pressure. After I make my choice, I want my opponent to have a big old countdown clock lighting a fire under their pants.

Players who play well should win over those who do not play well, regardless of speed. But players who play well and also play quickly should win over those who play just as well, but take much longer to make decisions. No?

#20 Re: Main Forum » Slow play or slow server? » 2015-02-27 18:50:19

context fabric wrote:
Apreche wrote:

Oh, one more thing. If a player is all-in, then the reveal phase should be skipped. As soon as the final rows/columns are chosen, it should just go straight to displaying the final result.

That would speed things up a smidge and skip an unecessary step. +1

For your original post, you probably just have slow opponents. If there were problems communicating with the server you would see the red [!] at the top of the game.

Also you get 1min before youre gonged, then 10 seconds. Thats really not that long if you think about. Remember patience is a virtue!

Yeah, not only does it force you to reveal, it forces you to keep clicking on BET 0 for the rest of the game. A lot of time can be saved by cutting that out as well.

If indeed my opponents are slow, that's just annoying. I have this same problem with board games also. I take my turn quickly, and it's frustrating to play against people who do not. Perhaps after one player sends their input, the other player could be forced to input within 5-10 seconds or face a penalty? One minute is an absurdly long amount of time to make one small decision.

#21 Re: Main Forum » Slow play or slow server? » 2015-02-27 16:07:52

Oh, one more thing. If a player is all-in, then the reveal phase should be skipped. As soon as the final rows/columns are chosen, it should just go straight to displaying the final result.

#22 Main Forum » Slow play or slow server? » 2015-02-27 15:25:26

Replies: 31

Lately all of my opponents have been terribly slow. I'm not sure if it's slowness on the part of the player or if it's technological in nature. Most of the time I spend playing nowadays I am just waiting for my opponent to make decisions. If it's technological slowness, please fix it. If it's player slowness, please penalize players who take too long on their turns. It shouldn't take more than a few seconds to make any decision in this game.

#23 Re: Main Forum » CONFIRMED EVENT Anyone on here in NYC? » 2014-12-08 01:30:22

I am in NYC, but it's obviously too late. Just got the e-mail to join the game today.

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB